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JR's District Tourney - Bat Violation where call went to the bat mfg


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#1 stan.staziak

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Posted 08 July 2016 - 12:10 PM

I was doing (Umpiring) a seniors scrimmage last night. Pre-game I was talking to one of the parents I knew who had a kid on the Jr's team so I asked how the tourney went (they won the district)

In our local district Juniors district tournament (VA D16) during the 7th inning of the semifinal game, the the defensive team manager challenged the offensive teams bat. What was weird to me was that this call went to the bat manufacturer.

The umpires checked the bats (including the bat in question) pre game and it was ok. So when the defensive manager questioned the bat, the umpire looked at the bat and once again said it was legal

Tourney director - bat is legal
Southeast Region - bat is legal
WILLIAMSPORT - bat is legal
Bat Manufacturer - bat is NOT legal

Penalty: So kid is ejected and manager is ejected, then the other two coaches get ejected.
An adult from the stands is put in the dugout. Players coach the bases.
After the game at the end of the handshake, someone (not sure who but it was one of the coaches) says to opposing team how bush league they are and the coaches of both teams go at it in a pushing and shoving match.
Local PD is called in to break it up and send everyone their separate way.

Questions:

What I don't know is who said to call the bat manufacturer? Was it WP? I don't know

My question is; once WP makes a decision, wouldn't this be final?

Are there write ups on the post game melee's by either the umps or tourney director?

#2 Lou Barbieri

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Posted 08 July 2016 - 12:26 PM

"Williamsport: Bat is Legal."

The decision by Williamsport is FINAL.

 

I would also like to know who called the Bat Manufacturer (and why)?

 

If I'm the "ejected" manager, I'm calling Williamsport and asking that my "suspension" be over-ridden!

As I said above, once Williamsport says the bat is legal, that's it, Protest Denied, no more discussions, no more calls.



#3 Plesh

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Posted 08 July 2016 - 12:41 PM

Protest:

1. Umpires

2. TD or DA

3. Region

4. Willy P

5. Bat manufacturer??

 

Maybe that coach has an amended version of the rule book, but mine certainly says "The decision of the Tournament Committee shall be final and binding."

 

And I assume the other 2 coaches were ejected because of arguing, right?

 

 

Also, as a side note, what does a manufacturer know about eligibility of the bat for LL Juniors? (not that it's their decision anyway)

Do you think they just Googled it when they got the phone call? I can just imagine what was going on on their end when they got that call.



#4 Lou Barbieri

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Posted 08 July 2016 - 12:53 PM

I blame the TD/DA!!!

 

The TD/DA is the one on the phone and if he/she is told that Wlliamsport says the bat is Legal at that point the answer is "Protest Denied", Play Ball.

 

Not sure how this "call to the manufacturer" came about but it shouldn't have mattered, once Williamsport said the bat was Legal that's it, their decision is FINAL.

 

Overturning a ruling by Williamsport based on what a bat manufacturer says - WOW

The TD/DA needs to read the Rules !!!


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#5 Mike_Hirschman

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Posted 08 July 2016 - 12:58 PM

Yep.... someone screwed that one up. Once you go to Williamsport, the issue is complete. 

 

Short of it being a decertified BBCOR, I'd like to know what it was that the manufacturer would say made it bad.

 

But also shame on the assistant coaches because rather than getting thrown out of the game, you say "I refuse to play. Don't throw another pitch. Get Williamsport back on the phone before I put my kids on this field."  Make it go back to the Tournament Committee.


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#6 stan.staziak

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Posted 08 July 2016 - 05:58 PM

Mike, I think you nailed it with that last paragraph, they should have said get WP back on the horn.

 

I have no idea what the mfg said, it was the TD who was the one on the phone. 



#7 Lou Barbieri

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Posted 08 July 2016 - 06:14 PM

Stan, was the TD the one that called the manufacturer?

Was the call made AFTER Williamsport said the bat was Legal?

 

Again, if I'm the manager that got "ejected" I'm calling Williamsport and asking that my ejection be "over-turned" and I'm certainly going to "complain" about the TD "over-riding" the Ruling by Williamsport.

 

====

One other thing, you said there was an incident in the post game hand-shake line between "the coaches of both teams."

Did the previously "ejected" coaches come back onto the field for the post game hand-shakes?



#8 stan.staziak

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Posted 09 July 2016 - 10:42 AM

Lou,

 

Yes (TD called), Yes (Mfg called AFTER WP), and yes to the coaches coming back to the field which may negate any chance of overturning the suspension.

 

Mike



#9 Lou Barbieri

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Posted 09 July 2016 - 12:48 PM

So again, if I'm the ejected manager I'm calling Williamsport and telling them that the TD over-ruled their decision by calling the bat manufacturer and then ruling the bat illegal and ejecting me and my player.
Hopefully the suspensions would be over-turned.
The TD needs to be "reminded" that decisions by Williamsport are FINAL.

The "ejected" managers and coaches need to be told that once they are ejected they need to leave the field area and are not allowed back onto the field.
Since their actions resulted in the police needing to be called I would think additional disciplinary actions may be warranted.

#10 stan.staziak

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Posted 10 July 2016 - 11:29 AM

I told the coach what you said Lou about contacting WP to get it overturned. States start on Thursday I believe so he better get moving

Thanks

#11 Lou Barbieri

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Posted 10 July 2016 - 03:45 PM

It's worth the call, in my opinion, and I'd call on Monday morning.
Worse case is they say the suspension stands so he is not any worse off than before he called!
Be sure that his position is that once Williamsport ruled the bat was legal that should have been it, Protest Denied, Play Ball.
Anything after that "shouldn't have happened."
The TD had no authority to then call the bat manufacturer and then over-turn the ruling from Williamsport.


Sounds like in Juniors in Virginia the District Winners advance directly to the State Tournament, correct?

By the way, since the manager and both coaches were ejected, who is going to step in as the manager?

#12 Jeremy

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Posted 10 July 2016 - 08:13 PM

Pushing that leads to cops being called after a game, it all started over an incorrect bat ruling.....Make it a two game suspension.

#13 B_Hanlon

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Posted 11 July 2016 - 12:18 PM

What seems just as strange to me is who the heck answered the phone at the bat manufacturer after hours? What credibility is there? They must have their own janitor roaming the halls.



#14 stan.staziak

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Posted 11 July 2016 - 12:19 PM

It's worth the call, in my opinion, and I'd call on Monday morning.
Worse case is they say the suspension stands so he is not any worse off than before he called!
Be sure that his position is that once Williamsport ruled the bat was legal that should have been it, Protest Denied, Play Ball.
Anything after that "shouldn't have happened."
The TD had no authority to then call the bat manufacturer and then over-turn the ruling from Williamsport.


Sounds like in Juniors in Virginia the District Winners advance directly to the State Tournament, correct?

By the way, since the manager and both coaches were ejected, who is going to step in as the manager?

Correct Lou

 

In all divisions of LL, District winners (16 districts) advance to the states for pool play

 

I have no idea who will be the manager. I'm not that close to the team's coaches. Its one of the players parents that I know well.

 

FYI, these are all travel coaches and have a bit more energy than your typical coach.  Lets just say they get animated and have ever since my son played for them at 9-10 all stars way back in 2012. 

 

I passed on calling today and I'm sure I'll hear thru the grapevine what the final result with WP was.

 

thanks again



#15 Plesh

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Posted 11 July 2016 - 12:59 PM

16 Districts is perfect for 4 sections of 4 teams. Why do they skip right to states with pool play (especially since it isn't a state with only a handful of teams)?



#16 Guest_Lou Barbieri_*

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Posted 11 July 2016 - 01:28 PM

In Virginia, for All Divisions, All District Winners advance to States - WOW.
No Sectionals at all, in any division, well, If it works for Virginia, Great.

Is there some sort of Rotation Schedule so that all of the Districts get to Host a State Tournament periodically so they don't have to "travel" year after year after year?

As for all District Winners advancing to the State Tournament, that seems like a lot of travel/costs, especially for the Districts that are "quite a-ways away" from where the State Tournament is being played.

With 16 Districts I would think the State could be divided into 4 Sections with 4 Districts in each.
I'd go with something like Section 1: 1,11,12,13, Section 2: 5,6,7,8, Section 3: 2,3,14,15 and Section 4: 4,9,10,15.
That way everyone wouldn't need to travel so far.
You would then advance the 4 Sectional Winners to the State Tournament.
I guess that's just what I'm used to seeing, Districts, Sectionals, then States.

By the way, the Virginia Junior Baseball State Tournament is NOT Pool Play.
There are 13 District Winners plus "Halifax" and they are playing a 14 team Double Elimination Tournament (it's going to be 2 and BBQ for several teams).

For major BB, there are 16 teams divided into four 4 team Pools with 2 teams advancing from each Pool to a Single Elimination Tournament.

#17 stan.staziak

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Posted 12 July 2016 - 12:35 PM

I have no idea how the "rotation" for hosting the states work. I've never kept tabs on it but I've never recalled it being within say "60" miles or so of me or I would have went. At least since my kids started playing all stars in 2011.  That would have been the first year I really paid attention to all stars. 

 

But no Sectionals here. I can see it in places like California with so many teams (as well as many other highly populated states or maybe states with really large geographical areas.  But in some states like NJ, MA, etc I always wondered why they had sectionals. 

 

In VA, I would think the 16 teams makes for a nice even tournament type number.  The distance can be an issue. For the Jr's,(not all districts must send a team) our league is traveling quite a ways to Pound, VA (its in BF Egypt) a little over 400 miles to the southwest corner of the state. Pound has a population of just over 1000. 

 

They best hope that its not 2 and BBQ for them LOL.  They should be pretty competitive but its all luck of the draw.



#18 Guest_Lou Barbieri_*

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Posted 12 July 2016 - 12:50 PM

Again, in my opinion, you have enough teams (16) and your state is large enough to warrant Sectionals.

As you said, it's 400 miles for you to go to States.

Wouldn't it be a lot easier if you had a Sectional somewhere a lot closer.

It would save a lot of leagues a lot of money.

That way only one team from your Section would need to drive 300-400 miles to the State Tournament.

 

If this were Rhode Island or Delaware or some other small state I could understand no Sectionals (it's not that long a drive from one end of the state to the other).

I can also understand no Sectionals if the State only has a few Districts (not feasible to divide into Sections).

But for larger states with a lot of Districts where a State Tournament can be a long drive, forcing hotel stays, I think a Sectional Format is much better for the Local Leagues/Districts.

 

 

Again, my comments are primarily due to the fact that in all of the places I've been involved in LL, there were always Sectionals.

I did live in Charlottesville, Virginia the year after I got out of college but I didn't volunteer for the local LL that year so I never was involved with LL in Virginia.



#19 Plesh

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Posted 12 July 2016 - 01:10 PM

Agreed Lou, Sections are the way to go outside of really small states geographically (RI, DE, D.C.) or minimal team participation (Oklahoma, Montana, etc.).

 

It just makes for better tournaments (like no 14 team DE brackets) while reducing unnecessary travel.



#20 Lou Barbieri

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Posted 12 July 2016 - 01:23 PM

I know travel costs are really important to a lot of leagues.

In my Section in Florida (4 Districts), it's possible for teams/players/parents to drive back and forth to the games if they wish (rather than spending the extra money on hotels, meals, ...).

I "prefer" Sectionals, if possible, but if sending District Winners directly to States "works" for a certain State, so be it.

 

By the way, I started a new thread on this topic in the "Hot Stove" section.





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