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Problem with a situational ruling in "Make the Right Call" 2016


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#1 RitaC

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Posted 20 February 2016 - 02:54 AM

From "Make the Right Call" 2016

RULE 4.09( b ) SITUATION: Tie game in the bottom of the sixth inning, two outs. Batter receives ball four and all runners begin to advance. Runner from 3rd touches home plate. The batter rushes to join in the end game celebration without having touched 1st base. The batter then enters the dugout with the rest of his team.

RULING: Umpire will call the batter out for abandoning his effort to advance. In this instance, the third out is a result of the batter being called out before touching first base, therefore it is a force out. No run scores and the game continues with the score still tied. NOTE: The player must enter dead ball territory before he can be called for abandonment.

Rita
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#2 Lou Barbieri

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Posted 20 February 2016 - 03:10 AM

The wording is incorrect, it's not a "force out".
That said, the third out was made by the batter prior to reaching first base so no runs can score on the play.
Top of the 7th, batter up !

#3 RitaC

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Posted 20 February 2016 - 03:24 AM

Lou, Where in the rulebook does it say a batter can be called out for abandonment?
Or that the runner must go into dead ball territory for abandonment to be called?

#4 Lou Barbieri

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Posted 20 February 2016 - 03:54 AM

With the book or by the book!

6.08 says that with four balls called the batter becomes a runner and is entitled to first base "provided said runner advances to and touches first base".
So, if the batter doesn't advance to and touch first base, what's the call?
You've got two choices, Safe or Out! 😀


4.09( b ) ... "the umpire shall not declare the game ended until the runner forced to advance from third has touched home base and the batter-runner has touched first base."

So, if the batter-runner never touched first the game isn't over.
As the umpire, you can't leave the field until the game is over so how long are you going to stand there after the teams leave the field and everyone goes home? 😁
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#5 richives

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Posted 20 February 2016 - 03:34 PM

You cannot abandon before touching 1B.  7.08(a )(2 )  (Old numbering)

 

You must refuse to advance on ball 4 in this situation to be called out. While this note isn't in the LL books, LL follows the MLB approved rulings and it is in the OBR - 4.09(b ) (Old numbering) Penalty: If, with two out, the batter-runner refuses to advance to and touch first base, the umpire shall disallow the run, call out the offending player, and order the game resumed.

 

Just tell the batter-runner he needs to touch 1B.



#6 Jeremy

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Posted 20 February 2016 - 07:29 PM

Should an ump really tell a runner that..?

#7 richives

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Posted 20 February 2016 - 07:59 PM

Should an ump really tell a runner that..?

 

He can't refuse unless told he has to.



#8 Mike_Hirschman

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Posted 22 February 2016 - 06:36 PM

I've actually witnessed in a game a long time ago... team was about to snap a long losing streak and get first win of the year; ball four and the batter runs back to the dugout jumping around; the plate umpire looks at me standing on the side of the backstop and says "oh, I do really have to make this call?"

 

I just shook my head. 



#9 amutz

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Posted 22 February 2016 - 07:10 PM

I've actually witnessed in a game a long time ago... team was about to snap a long losing streak and get first win of the year; ball four and the batter runs back to the dugout jumping around; the plate umpire looks at me standing on the side of the backstop and says "oh, I do really have to make this call?"

 

I just shook my head. 

Made me smile to read this.  If I was plate ump in a regular season game with 'new' manager I'd be very tempted to take the manager aside and advise him to get his batter-runner to touch first base....  



#10 richives

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Posted 22 February 2016 - 11:21 PM

I've actually witnessed in a game a long time ago... team was about to snap a long losing streak and get first win of the year; ball four and the batter runs back to the dugout jumping around; the plate umpire looks at me standing on the side of the backstop and says "oh, I do really have to make this call?"

I just shook my head.


Not if you understand the meaning of "refuse".
You can't refuse something you haven't been asked to do.
Just tell him he has to go touch 1B
THEN if he refuses you can call the out.

#11 amutz

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Posted 23 February 2016 - 12:09 AM

Seems the open question is whether leaving the field of play and entering the dugout is equivalent to 'giving up the base', as it is on a dropped third strike.
I don't know.
I agree asking the runner to touch 1B makes the most sense to fulfill conditions of ending the game.

#12 Lou Barbieri

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Posted 23 February 2016 - 05:23 PM

So Rich, as an Umpire when a pitch to a batter is ball 4 I generally say "Ball Four, Batter take your base."

So, if the batter/runner then walks off the field/goes into the dugout, etc (does not go to first base) can I consider that a "refusal"?

   ;)


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#13 richives

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Posted 23 February 2016 - 07:17 PM

So Rich, as an Umpire when a pitch to a batter is ball 4 I generally say "Ball Four, Batter take your base."

So, if the batter/runner then walks off the field/goes into the dugout, etc (does not go to first base) can I consider that a "refusal"?

   ;)

 

Most umpires don't say the "take your base" part.

And for your part - no it's not a refusal until you tell them they must and they don't. 

 

And as it's a special case (game ender) just tell him he has to go touch first.

 

Do you really expect some 11-12 year old to know some obscure finer point of the rules?

Or their managers at this level?

 

LL instructs umpires to tell managers when they have a choice on a catcher's interference play and what the possibilities are.

Pros are expected to know.

Keep the same though process in mind here.

Don't be "that guy".



#14 Jeremy

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Posted 23 February 2016 - 09:34 PM

We've know each other for a few years now, you can stop calling me "that guy".
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#15 richives

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Posted 23 February 2016 - 09:45 PM

We've know each other for a few years now, you can stop calling me "that guy".

 

It's a generic term addressed to a mind set, not any particular individual.   :)  



#16 rsnyder6

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Posted 28 February 2016 - 08:16 PM

It may be semantics, but is seem to me a runner can refuse to follow the rules, and touch first base, or refuses to follow the umpire's indication of ball four and touch first base, or the umpires pointing to first base.
I don't see the umpire is required indicate it twice. (I would for younger kids, but not older.)

#17 richives

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Posted 28 February 2016 - 10:50 PM

It may be semantics, but is seem to me a runner can refuse to follow the rules, and touch first base, or refuses to follow the umpire's indication of ball four and touch first base, or the umpires pointing to first base.
I don't see the umpire is required indicate it twice. (I would for younger kids, but not older.)

 

He needs, IN THIS SITUATION, to know that he MUST touch first base.  It isn't always necessary. It's only necessary on a forced-in winning run with two outs. With less than two outs it doesn't matter because calling him out doesn't affect the run scoring.



#18 Lou Barbieri

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Posted 29 February 2016 - 04:24 AM

Playing devil's advocate here:
Top of 6th, score tied, bases loaded, two outs, ball 4 and batter goes to the bench instead of first. He's out. No runs score.
Bottom of 6th, score tied, bases loaded, two outs, ball 4 and batter goes to the bench instead of first. Umpire needs to tell the batter he needs to go touch first base so that when he does the winning run scores.

Sure sounds fair to me !!! ;o)
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#19 richives

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Posted 29 February 2016 - 04:26 PM

Playing devil's advocate here:
Top of 6th, score tied, bases loaded, two outs, ball 4 and batter goes to the bench instead of first. He's out. No runs score.
Bottom of 6th, score tied, bases loaded, two outs, ball 4 and batter goes to the bench instead of first. Umpire needs to tell the batter he needs to go touch first base so that when he does the winning run scores.

Sure sounds fair to me !!! ;o)

 

Where does it say this Mr. Devil?  Rule 6 lists a number of ways a batter is out - this isn't one of them. Abandoning can only happen after the batter reaches first.    ;)



#20 Guest_Lou Barbieri_*

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Posted 29 February 2016 - 05:02 PM

Rich, 3 posts above this one you said "With less than 2 outs it doesn't matter because calling him out doesn't affect the runs scoring."

 

So, I was just responding to what I thought you were inferring which was that if it wasn't the last out in the bottom of the last inning where the winning run was forced in due to the walk then you would call the runner out (he doesn't have to "refuse" to go to first).

If I misunderstood your post, Sorry.

 

So Rich, bottom line is, the original post of the "Make The Right Call" ruling on 4.09 ( b ) is incorrect.

In this situation, you DO NOT call the runner out, you tell him to go touch first and when he does, game over.





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