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Forcing L/A 11 to majors.


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#21 rsnyder6

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 05:52 AM

"Still baffled by the number of 12s who are not in Majors though."

 

That sticks with me. Playing Majors at age 12 is the thing almost every player in our league looks forward to. If we had 80% of the 12s playing in Minors, I'd be tar and feathered.

​I don't see the point of it, though with them being picked the year before and playing together then, it sounds like they are perhaps seen as ersatz travel teams. Are the All-Star teams picked from these teams, or do the just move on to the tournament? 
 



#22 Plesh

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 02:15 PM

The "General Information Guide" linked on your league's website is very interesting!

So many things to comment on, so little time! :o

 

Wait, what's with their multiple age cutoff dates?

Plus they explicitly state they pay their umpires...

Multiple 12 year old divisions.

12 year olds pitching in Minors.

Multiple registration dates.

Drafting teams in 2015 for 2016.

Filling teams after an initial partial draft.

 

So much to comment on is right Lou.



#23 RB56

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Posted 21 April 2016 - 12:55 AM

Excerpt from "A Year in the Life of Hometown Little League":
How Do We Line Up?
...
It is recommended the ratio of Minors to Majors players not exceed 2:1 in the 9-12 year old age group.


With 4 major teams and 20 "non-Major (Minor) teams your ratio is 5:1.
LL is supposed to check on the ratio when you submit your Charter (pretty obvious no one is checking yours!).


You get a Waiver to allow 12s to pitch in Minors - never heard of that before.
12s are only supposed to be allowed to play Minors with Parent, BOD and DA approval - not sure how you do what you do unless you get all 3 approvals and getting parent approval of that many players seems very unlikely !!! I would think a DA approval of that many Waivers might also be hard to get (at least I would hope it would be).


Question for RB56: Do you still have a ~ 5:1 minors to major ratio and if so, was your 2016 Charter submitted/approved that way???


All our league schedules are posted for 2016.
For the 9 to 12 year olds, the Minors to Majors Ratio varies over our four leagues.

League A: 12 Minors // 4 Majors // 3.0 to 1 Ratio
League B: 21 Minors // 5 Majors // 4.2 to 1 Ratio
League C: 16 Minors // 5 Majors // 3.2 to 1 Ratio
League D: 10 Minors // 4 Majors // 2.5 to 1 Ratio
Total All: 59 Minors // 18 Majors // 3.3 to 1 Ratio

To match the recommended 2 to 1 ratio from "A Year in the Life of Hometown Little League," there would need to be seven additional Majors teams.

League B is the furthest from the 2 to 1 ratio, and that is the league where the alpha-dog BOD Members reside. Belief among families is that League B BOD Members were the drivers for our August tryout and draft, and "cutting" twelve year olds (website states, "Twelve's that try out and meet minimum skill sets will be drafted to the Majors teams to extent that there are openings."). These changes were made to compete more directly with travel baseball, by offering potential for year round training, as well as a more competitive spring season by limiting Majors teams below LLI recommended levels.

Do not know what percentage of 12 year olds are still in Minors for 2016. Heard a figure of about 20% for a prior year.

#24 Lou Barbieri

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Posted 21 April 2016 - 01:28 AM

Your BOD and DA should be "fired" (if you could fire Volunteers).
No way 20% of all 12 year olds should be in minors.
The league shouldn't do it and the DA shouldn't approve the Waivers for it.

Then again, that's just MY opinion!!!
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#25 RB56

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Posted 22 April 2016 - 09:10 PM

Your BOD and DA should be "fired" (if you could fire Volunteers).
No way 20% of all 12 year olds should be in minors.
The league shouldn't do it and the DA shouldn't approve the Waivers for it.

Then again, that's just MY opinion!!!

 

The about 20% figure related to 12 year olds in the Minors division was from a few years back.  This was before our league was granted a waiver for 12 year olds to pitch in the Minors division, and before this season when 12 year olds could be "cut" if lacking in skill level or if there was not an opening on a Majors team (league website states, "Twelve's that try out and meet minimum skill sets will be drafted to the Majors teams to extent that there are openings.").  Would guess this about 20% figure could possible be even higher for 2016.

 

For this prior year, heard the Majors division had about 80% of the 12 year olds, about 50% of the 11 year olds, about 10% of the 10 year olds, and no 9 year olds.  The remainder of the 9 to 12 year olds were in the Minors division.

 

We have a good number of 11 and 12 year olds who play in the Minors division so they can play with friends (Minors division teams are assigned, and not drafted).  Local Rules include, "According to the waiver granted ___________ Little League, 12-year-old players are able to pitch in the AAA division.  Parents are reminded that 12 year olds will be split as evenly as possible across AAA teams to ensure balanced teams.  Therefore, it is not appropriate to decide not to play in the majors for the sole purpose of keeping a team together in AAA as it will most likely not be possible."

 

Given that the Charter Committee had to grant the waiver permitting 12 year olds to pitch in the Minors division the past two years, it would seem Central Region and Williamsport are not troubled by the number of 12 year old still in the Minors division within our leagues.



#26 Lou Barbieri

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Posted 22 April 2016 - 10:33 PM

Ok, so I'll amend my previous statement, your BOD, your DA, the Central Region Director and the people on the Charter Committee should be fired!!!

This goes against the age old adage that all 12s should play in majors.
Age 12 is their last chance to play majors, why take it away from them?

Of course, maybe that's just me (but I sure hope not).
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#27 Jeremy

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Posted 22 April 2016 - 11:06 PM

I don't even like 11's in minors unless it's a clear safety risk.
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#28 Plesh

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Posted 23 April 2016 - 12:44 AM

Agreed on both accounts. 12s should absolutely be in Majors, no question. And 11s should [almost] never be in Minors either.

 

This year we only have 2 11s in Minors, twins who are first year players who I convinced would have a much better time in Minors (and it's already shown to be the correct decision). We rarely have 11s playing down though.

 

I know LL is much more timid nowadays to say no, but that many 12s (and 11s) playing down is ridiculous. How does not every parent complain that their 6th grade kids are playing with some 2nd and 3rd graders?


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#29 rsnyder6

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Posted 23 April 2016 - 12:53 AM

"How does not every parent complain that their 6th grade kids are playing with some 2nd and 3rd graders?"

 

How indeed.

 

We would have a revolt. Pitchforks and torches. 


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#30 RB56

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Posted 23 April 2016 - 01:50 AM

Agreed on both accounts. 12s should absolutely be in Majors, no question. And 11s should [almost] never be in Minors either.

 

This year we only have 2 11s in Minors, twins who are first year players who I convinced would have a much better time in Minors (and it's already shown to be the correct decision). We rarely have 11s playing down though.

 

I know LL is much more timid nowadays to say no, but that many 12s (and 11s) playing down is ridiculous. How does not every parent complain that their 6th grade kids are playing with some 2nd and 3rd graders?

 

Our Minors division is broken down into three separate divisions for 9 to 12 year olds.  

 

  • AAA Division for 11 and 12 year olds who choose not to tryout for Majors or who were not drafted.  There are 16 teams over our four leagues.  
  • Supreme Division for 9 and 10 year olds who desire a "more competitive" alternative (unique drafted division our league created in 2014).  There are 15 teams over our four leagues.
  • AA Division for 9 and 10 year olds who choose not to tryout for the Supreme Division or who were not drafted.  There are 28 teams over our four leagues.

 

Younger kids are permitted to play up (e.g., 10 year old could play in the Majors Division or AAA Division).  We do not have 2nd and 3rd graders playing with 6th graders.

 

Biggest concern this season was the league's position, supported by the DA, that 12 year olds had to tryout and meet minimum skill levels, or they may be not make a Majors division team (returning Majors players were guaranteed a roster spot).  This runs in direct opposition to the policy found on LLI's website (as a number of parents pointed out):

 

  • "All league-age 12-year-old players must be drafted onto a Major Division team whether or not they attend tryouts/candidate evaluations.  Exceptions to this can occur only if the District Administrator, Board of Directors and parent agree in writing (on a specific form provided by Little League International) that the player should be placed in the Minor Division."  Link to LLI's website:  http://www.littlelea...Page57928.aspx 

 

Our league's position is 12 year olds needed to tryout and be good enough to secure a Majors Division roster spot.  LLI's website says 12 year olds must be drafted whether or not they attend tryouts.  Difficult to bridge those two positions.



#31 Lou Barbieri

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Posted 23 April 2016 - 02:05 AM

As you noted, for a 12 to play in minors a Waiver is needed and it has to be signed by the league (President/BOD), the parent and the DA.
So, do you have such a Waiver for every 12 year old in minors?
I can't imagine that many parents would agree to such Waivers.

My question to your BOD would be "Why?"
Why not just increase the number of major teams and provide the experience of playing majors to all of your 12 year olds?
You allow 10s to "play up" to majors while you drop 12s to minors - unbelievable!
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#32 RB56

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Posted 24 April 2016 - 03:38 PM

As you noted, for a 12 to play in minors a Waiver is needed and it has to be signed by the league (President/BOD), the parent and the DA.
So, do you have such a Waiver for every 12 year old in minors?
I can't imagine that many parents would agree to such Waivers.

My question to your BOD would be "Why?"
Why not just increase the number of major teams and provide the experience of playing majors to all of your 12 year olds?
You allow 10s to "play up" to majors while you drop 12s to minors - unbelievable!

 

The short answer appears to be the BOD believes it needs to compete more directly with travel baseball.  By drafting in August, it provides the potential to train year around.  By limiting the number of Majors teams below LLI recommended levels of two Minors teams to one Majors team for 9 to 12 year olds, the Majors Division will be more "competitive" in the spring.  By "cutting" twelve year olds who do not "meet minimum skill sets", the leagues are free to draft the best player available regardless of age.

 

When pushed on issues, the BOD's response is often some form of "the DA is okay with this approach."  Even when LLI's published rules and regulations clearly state differently.  As posted above, LLI's website says twelve year olds "must be drafted onto a Major Division team whether or not they attend tryouts/candidate evaluations".  Our leagues' position is stated on its website as, "Twelve's that try out and meet minimum skill sets will be drafted to the Majors teams to extent that there are openings" (have to be good enough, and there has to be an opening).  These positions are opposite of each other in relation to twelve year olds.

 

When there was a league expansion draft this past August, a draft method not found in the 2015 Operating Manual was used, despite tremendous protest from a few coaches.  This was the topic of a prior thread (http://leagueforum.o...team-expansion/).  No waiver was sought from the Charter Committee, even though this method was in violation of rules/regulations found in both the Operating Manual and Rule Book (separate at the time).

 

Page 160 of the 2016 Rule Book says, ". . . the District Administrator never has the authority to suspend or waive any rule or regulation . . ."  But "the DA is okay with this approach" is often the reason the BOD provides.

 

Heard Central Region as well as Williamsport had been contacted on a number of these issues (by phone and e-mail).  Almost appears as if LLI selectively enforces its rules and regulations, but that is just my opinion.



#33 Dave Poe

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Posted 24 April 2016 - 11:55 PM

Since when is cutting, in any shape or form, acceptable in LL?
I was under the impression that LL was all inclusive.
If you sign up, you play.
Period.

What your league does is not LL....
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#34 Lou Barbieri

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Posted 25 April 2016 - 12:39 PM

If RB56 is correct that the Central Region and Williamsport have been contacted on several of these issues by e:mail and by phone and nothing was done then I am very disappointed in LL.
It sets a bad precedent and it's not fair to the thousands of leagues out there that bust their butts to do things the right way.

More importantly, it's not fair to the 20% of the 12 year olds in the league that are playing in minors instead of majors.
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#35 rsnyder6

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Posted 27 April 2016 - 07:08 PM

It is unfair.

Sounds like this BOD wants to run a travel league, and have a Little League set up as a farm system.
 

They really should give up the charter to people that want to run a Little League league.

I'm being very judgmental here, but this is supposed to be about the kids.



#36 RB56

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Posted 05 June 2016 - 12:20 AM

If RB56 is correct that the Central Region and Williamsport have been contacted on several of these issues by e:mail and by phone and nothing was done then I am very disappointed in LL.
It sets a bad precedent and it's not fair to the thousands of leagues out there that bust their butts to do things the right way.

More importantly, it's not fair to the 20% of the 12 year olds in the league that are playing in minors instead of majors.

 

Confirmed that at least three LL officials identified by name in Jackie Robinson West's lawsuit filed in February, 2016, were among those included on e-mails raising concerns over some of our league's operating policies.  At least two of these LL officials were also spoken to directly over the phone (one at Central Region and one at Williamsport).

 

Do not know the exact percent of 12 year olds playing in the Minors Division this season, but do know that for 11 and 12 year olds our four leagues have almost the same number of Majors Division teams (18) as AAA Minors Division teams (16).  In round numbers, a little more than half the 11 and 12 year olds are in the Majors Division (10 year olds can play up in the Majors or AAA Minors, and some do).

 

For the 9 and 10 year olds our four leagues have drafted Supreme Division teams (15) and non-drafted AA Minors Division teams (28).  In total, for the 9 to 12 year old age group, there are 3.3 times the number of Minors Division teams (59) then there are Majors Division teams (18).  This exceed the recommended ratio of 2:1 found in "A Year in the Life of Hometown Little League" by a wide margin.  Would be surprised, and disappointed, if any league is in this 3.3:1 range of Minor to Majors teams (9 to 12 year olds).

 

In 2014 Peachtree City Little League (Georgia) and Rosedale Little League (California) were disqualified from the tournament for having an unbalanced regular season draft with too many 12 year olds on a team or two (depending on what you read, may have been other violations).  We have roughly half our 11 and 12 year olds in the Majors Division, with no where near the 2:1 Minor to Majors ratio for 9 to 12 year olds, and what does LLI do?  The Charter Committee grants a waiver permitting 12 year olds to pitch in our Minors Division.  Hard to justify a reason for granting such a waiver.



#37 Guest_Just Reading_*

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Posted 06 June 2016 - 05:05 PM

Is it possible that this league considers the Supreme Division a Majors division as well? Leagues are allowed to have up to 2 Majors divisions. What would the ratio be then? 18+15 Majors teams and 59-15 Minors teams? 44:33 or 1:3 to 1? That would seem to be the only rational for doing what they are doing.



#38 amutz

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Posted 06 June 2016 - 05:15 PM

Leagues are not allowed to deliberately build 'unequal' Majors divisions, and 'Supreme' is a minors division as described.



#39 Guest_Just Reading_*

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Posted 06 June 2016 - 05:32 PM

What is "unequal"? It appears this is Majors for two different age groups (9-10 and 11-12). Do you mean that you can't have 2 Majors divisions at the same age group separating talent levels or you can't have 2 Majors divisions at different age groups?



#40 Plesh

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Posted 06 June 2016 - 05:46 PM

You can only have 1 Majors division. You can have as many different Minors divisions as you would like.





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