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Forcing L/A 11 to majors.


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#1 Jeremy

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Posted 16 January 2016 - 06:58 AM

Our league makes all 11 year olds play majors.

This year we have an 11 year old that doesn't want to go up.....I've read regulation Vlll (note) but to me it's vague on the local boards authority.

What can the local board do to kids that decline to move up?

My personal opinion is let the kid stay down, I'm not a fan of just because you're 11 you go to majors, but I'm one vote on the board.

#2 Lou Barbieri

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Posted 16 January 2016 - 02:06 PM

Little League says minors is 7-11 and majors is 9-12, 10-12 or 11-12.
There are a lot of leagues that are 9-10 minors and 11-12 majors.
To me, kids should play minors/majors based on ability.

Example: you don't let an 11 that was on the 9-10 Tournament Team to play minors just because that's where he or his parents want him to play.
Now, if it's a safety issue, you should certainly allow an 11 in minors.

Years ago when I was the President of a PONY league, their divisions are 9-10 and 11-12 and it seems to work fine for them.

#3 Jamief

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Posted 16 January 2016 - 06:21 PM

What is gained by forcing all 11s up to majors?

In our league most 11s will get drafted up to majors but each season we could have 3-4 11s that either haven't played before or just aren't strong enough.

Kids should be placed where they are going to be successfull. Being a 2 inning 1 at bat kid is a disservice to those players. Maybe that 11 that isn't comfortable at majors takes a spot of a really strong 10. Now you've effected two kids.

#4 amutz

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Posted 17 January 2016 - 02:28 AM

When we were a property league we'd sometimes have the opposite problem, with 11s getting 'stranded' in minors because managers would rather draft the most promising 10s and lock them in.    

 

With redraft, 11s who will be successful in Majors are drafted.  Roughly speaking I expect 80% of 11s in Majors and 20% in minors.    Best guess roughly 10% of the 10yo will be in Majors and 90% minors.    Its good to have some flexibility.  



#5 kylejt

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Posted 17 January 2016 - 06:08 PM

There are several schools of thought on this.

 

First, should always be safety. Would he be a danger to himself playing in the Majors? Conversely, would he be a danger to kids in the minors?

 

Every local league can set its local rules to cover such things. I know we allow the option to have kids block themselves from the Majors at ages 10 and 11. Although at 11 the reason has to be rather compelling.

 

Some may focus on the baseball aspect of LL, but forget about social side of it. Do you want an 11 going on 12 year old, sitting in the same dugout as 8 going on 9 year olds? Skill level aside, the age disparity on the social level needs to be taken into consideration, too.

 

When my son was 10, he had the option of playing in the minors again, or going into the draft for Majors. I laid out the facts of life to him (you're probably going play two innings, and get one AB per game), and let him choose. Hopefully the parents of the 11 year old did the same for him.

 

During the draft, we strongly encouraged the managers to take the remaining 11's toward the end of the draft. Again, the social aspect needs to be taken into consideration. It's tough on a willing 11 year to not get "the call".

 

In the end, the local league should allow itself the flexibility to place the 11 year in the minors, under the proper circumstances, just as they have that option for 12 year olds (if they follow the proper protocol)



#6 rsnyder6

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Posted 17 January 2016 - 10:14 PM

We have 9-10 and 11-12 divisions. (We used to have 9, 10, and 11-12, but lack of numbers cause problems with doing that.)

I find most parents, (not children, despite the claim, but parents) that ask for a change want their kids to play up, but we have had a couple 11s ask to play down. Funny thing is both wanted to be sure their kids would be able to play on the 11 All-Star teams. Seems they just wanted to stack the 9-10 team and/or keep parents together.

If there is a real safety issue with an 11yo, we would consider keeping them down. Even with the younger ages, you have to watch out that there are (legitimate, it seems to me) parent concerns with a couple kids almost three years older playing on younger teams.

Oh, and I don't know how most leagues do it, but we don't have managers in the regular season having any 2 inning 1 at bat players. We use continuous batting order at all ages, so there are not 1 at bats, and except maybe for playoffs, and not usually even then, some players may sit out an inning more than other players, maybe two, but we never had anyone keeping some players at the minimum through the season.
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#7 Plesh

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Posted 18 January 2016 - 01:30 PM

We have 9-10 and 11-12 divisions. (We used to have 9, 10, and 11-12, but lack of numbers cause problems with doing that.)

I find most parents, (not children, despite the claim, but parents) that ask for a change want their kids to play up, but we have had a couple 11s ask to play down. Funny thing is both wanted to be sure their kids would be able to play on the 11 All-Star teams. Seems they just wanted to stack the 9-10 team and/or keep parents together.

If there is a real safety issue with an 11yo, we would consider keeping them down. Even with the younger ages, you have to watch out that there are (legitimate, it seems to me) parent concerns with a couple kids almost three years older playing on younger teams.

Oh, and I don't know how most leagues do it, but we don't have managers in the regular season having any 2 inning 1 at bat players. We use continuous batting order at all ages, so there are not 1 at bats, and except maybe for playoffs, and not usually even then, some players may sit out an inning more than other players, maybe two, but we never had anyone keeping some players at the minimum through the season.

 

 

We are very similar. 9-10 Minors and 11-12 Majors. We allow any 8s and any 10s that want to try to move up attend a separate "move-up" evaluation.

 

We've had problems in the past (like I'm sure many on here) of kids playing down/ up because of nothing more than word of mouth.

As PA I've refined things and am forcing everyone to follow our rules, no exceptions.

 

Only about every other year do we have an 11 play down to Minors because it's their first time playing.

 

And we've never had a manager play their kids at the minimum (with maybe the exception of the playoffs).

We run CBO at all levels as well and every kid plays at least 3 innings in the field (most teams are 11 players so that helps too).


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#8 RB56

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Posted 18 January 2016 - 04:27 PM

Our leagues are structured very different than those mentioned above.  We are a multi-chartered league operating under a single Board of Directors (well over 1,000 players last year).

 

Within each chartered league, we have a drafted Majors Division team as well as a Minors Division team for the 11 and 12 year olds, and also a drafted Supreme Division team as well as a Minors Division team for the 9 and 10 year olds.  Players do have the option to play up (10 year olds to the Majors, etc.).

 

In one of the chartered leagues last spring, there were 4 Majors Division teams and 5 AAA Minors Division teams for the 11 and 12 year olds.  In addition, that league had 4 Supreme Division teams and 11 AA Minors Division teams for the 9 and 10 year olds.  In total this league had 24 teams for 9 to 12 year olds, with 4 drafted Majors Division teams and 20 non-Majors Division teams.  Does Little League International have a rule of thumb for the mix between Majors Division teams and non-Majors Division teams?

 

We have a large number of 11 and 12 year olds that choose to remain in the Minors Division for assorted reasons.  The 12 year olds are permitted to pitch in the AAA Minors Division (have a waiver).  As discussed in a prior thread, concern does exist with 12 year olds not being drafted to the Majors Division that desire to play there.  League website states, "Twelve's that try out and meet minimum skill sets will be drafted to the Majors teams to extent that there are openings."  Basically telling 12 year olds they have to be good enough, and there has to be an opening to play in the Majors Division (runs contrary to LLI published material).

 

Are there examples of any other leagues structured as this?



#9 Jamief

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Posted 18 January 2016 - 05:11 PM

Wow that is a big program. I'm surprised that no one has complained about not having ALL LA12s in majors. I would be shocked if you were able to get that many parents to agree to waiver their kids down into minors. I'm guessing you don't get waivers and try to hang your hat on there are no openings / skill set "rules" the league has posted.

What is your breakdown of ages? The number of LA12s should be a guide for how many majors teams you have. 4/20 ratio should be closer to 8/16. I haven't seen it in writing but read on this forum that a good rule of thumb is 2/1 minors to majors.

You say you have a waiver to allow 12s to pitch? Is that entered and approved every year? The DA doesn't ask "hey why do you need a waiver for 12s to pitch in minors? I haven't seen any waivers from you, signed by parents, to allow all these 12s to play down. So many so that you need additional waivers to allow these 12s to pitch. "

The way I understand it the number of 12s in your program should dictate how many majors teams you have. Does the league follow the rule capping number of 12s at 8? Or do they have a waiver for that too?

Seems kinda scketchy to me.

#10 Lou Barbieri

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Posted 18 January 2016 - 05:17 PM

Excerpt from "A Year in the Life of Hometown Little League":

How Do We Line Up?

...

It is recommended the ratio of Minors to Majors players not exceed 2:1 in the 9-12 year old age group.

 

 

With 4 major teams and 20 "non-Major (Minor) teams your ratio is 5:1.

LL is supposed to check on the ratio when you submit your Charter (pretty obvious no one is checking yours!).

 

 

You get a Waiver to allow 12s to pitch in Minors - never heard of that before.

12s are only supposed to be allowed to play Minors with Parent, BOD and DA approval - not sure how you do what you do unless you get all 3 approvals and getting parent approval of that many players seems very unlikely !!!  I would think a DA approval of that many Waivers might also be hard to get (at least I would hope it would be).

 

 

Question for RB56: Do you still have a ~ 5:1 minors to major ratio and if so, was your 2016 Charter submitted/approved that way???



#11 Plesh

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Posted 18 January 2016 - 06:08 PM


Our leagues are structured very different than those mentioned above. We are a multi-chartered league operating under a single Board of Directors (well over 1,000 players last year).


Within each chartered league, we have a drafted Majors Division team as well as a Minors Division team for the 11 and 12 year olds, and also a drafted Supreme Division team as well as a Minors Division team for the 9 and 10 year olds. Players do have the option to play up (10 year olds to the Majors, etc.).


In one of the chartered leagues last spring, there were 4 Majors Division teams and 5 AAA Minors Division teams for the 11 and 12 year olds. In addition, that league had 4 Supreme Division teams and 11 AA Minors Division teams for the 9 and 10 year olds. In total this league had 24 teams for 9 to 12 year olds, with 4 drafted Majors Division teams and 20 non-Majors Division teams. Does Little League International have a rule of thumb for the mix between Majors Division teams and non-Majors Division teams?


We have a large number of 11 and 12 year olds that choose to remain in the Minors Division for assorted reasons. The 12 year olds are permitted to pitch in the AAA Minors Division (have a waiver). As discussed in a prior thread, concern does exist with 12 year olds not being drafted to the Majors Division that desire to play there. League website states, "Twelve's that try out and meet minimum skill sets will be drafted to the Majors teams to extent that there are openings." Basically telling 12 year olds they have to be good enough, and there has to be an opening to play in the Majors Division (runs contrary to LLI published material).


Are there examples of any other leagues structured as this?


It doesn't seem like I'm reaching much by saying this is highly wrong.
No way do you get that many waivers from parents, DA, and LL.

This structure should absolutely be changed.

#12 RB56

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 02:45 AM

Excerpt from "A Year in the Life of Hometown Little League":

How Do We Line Up?

...

It is recommended the ratio of Minors to Majors players not exceed 2:1 in the 9-12 year old age group.

 

 

With 4 major teams and 20 "non-Major (Minor) teams your ratio is 5:1.

LL is supposed to check on the ratio when you submit your Charter (pretty obvious no one is checking yours!).

 

 

You get a Waiver to allow 12s to pitch in Minors - never heard of that before.

12s are only supposed to be allowed to play Minors with Parent, BOD and DA approval - not sure how you do what you do unless you get all 3 approvals and getting parent approval of that many players seems very unlikely !!!  I would think a DA approval of that many Waivers might also be hard to get (at least I would hope it would be).

 

 

Question for RB56: Do you still have a ~ 5:1 minors to major ratio and if so, was your 2016 Charter submitted/approved that way???

 

The 5:1 ratio was the most egregious example within our leagues last season.  The best ratio was 3:1, with the other leagues falling in between for the 2015 season.  

 

For the 2016 season most leagues, but not all, added one additional Majors Division team.  Assuming the same number of total teams as last season, the league with the 5:1 ratio last season (20 Minors Division teams and 4 Majors Division teams) would fall to a 3.8:1 ratio this season (19 Minors Division teams and 5 Majors Division teams).

 

Registration for the drafted Supreme Division (9 and 10 year olds) and drafted Majors Division (11 and 12 year olds) ends the last week of January.  Registration for the AA Minors Division (9 and 10 year olds) and the AAA Minors Division (11 and 12 year olds) ends in mid-March.  Will not know the 2016 ratios until that time.  

 

Perhaps Little League is checking the ratio of Minors-To-Drafted Teams at the 9 and 10 year old level, and separately at the 11 and 12 year old level.  As opposed to the entire 9 to 12 year old age span (reaching for a justification when one may not exist).  The drafted Supreme Division is something our league created for the 2014 season.

 

Believe the waiver for 12 year olds to pitch in the Minors Division may be granted since that league is for 11 and 12 year olds, and does not include any 9 year olds and very few 10 year olds (just a guess).  Typical safety concerns may not be present with a smaller age gap.  Agree it is doubtful proper waivers will be secured for all 12 year olds not drafted to the Majors Division.  At least a few parents may question why their kid was not drafted as a 12 year old when that is clearly Little League's preference.

 

As discussed in other threads, we held initial tryouts in August and drafted ten players per team at the Supreme and Majors level at that time (the draft method used for league expansion is not found in the 2015 Operating Manual and no waiver was sought).  Supplemental tryouts are to be held in a couple weeks, with a supplemental draft to complete Supreme and Majors teams held in early February.

 

The Assistant District Administrator currently sits on the league's Board of Directors.  The District Administrator is listed on the second page of "A Year in the Life of Hometown Little League" as serving on Little League Baseball, Incorporated's Board of Directors at the time of its publication.  The league structure has supposedly been blessed up the ladder.  This is the third year it has been used, but many operating questions still exist.



#13 Plesh

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 01:15 PM

You drafted players in 2015 for the 2016 season too?

This is getting even better [worse].

 

I remember we had an in-depth discussion in another thread a few months ago about the 2:1 ratio and whether it was team based i.e. # Majors teams: # Minors teams or if it was based on the number of players by age i.e. # players Minors aged: # of players Majors age.

I forget what was concluded since it is really just a guideline by LL.

I'll have to look back.

 

Obviously you have a huge league, but the big problem I see is that you have multiple divisions for 12 year olds, which should all be in Majors (except for rare exceptions).

 

You can have 47 Minors divisions (anything above T-ball, but below Majors), but you can have ONLY 1 Majors division.

 

Seems like you have a lot of overlap and a lot of drifting from the Regulations/ OM.


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#14 Lou Barbieri

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 01:40 PM

Plesh, I agree.

 

One other part I don't understand is:

Registration for Majors (11-12) and Supreme Minors (9-10) ends in January but Registration for AA Minors (9-10) and AA Minors (11-12) doesn't end until mid-March.

How does a parent know "when" to Register their child?

So, if my kid is 12 and I go to Registration in January, am I going to be told Majors is "full" come back in March?

 

One more question: I wonder if the Majors and Supreme Minors start practices/games a 4-6 weeks earlier than AA/AAA Minors?

 

OOPS, one more: you said you are "multi-league", how many leagues are there under your BOD?



#15 Plesh

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 01:53 PM

My brain hurts from trying to analyze this.

Plus they have multiple charters (at least 3 I assume) so it adds even more to this chaos.

 

I would certainly like to sit in on one of their board meetings that's for sure.


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#16 amutz

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Posted 21 January 2016 - 04:06 PM

If my guess is right - 4 charters, and in a suburb of Chicago.  Big league!  

Drafting majors in August lets them play their teams through Fall Ball season and then take basically same roster into Spring season.  

For kids who want to play fall+spring I can see the advantage, but kids with another fall sport would find it hard to get into a majors team.  

 

Still baffled by the number of 12s who are not in Majors though.  



#17 RB56

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 01:02 AM

If my guess is right - 4 charters, and in a suburb of Chicago. Big league!
Drafting majors in August lets them play their teams through Fall Ball season and then take basically same roster into Spring season.
For kids who want to play fall+spring I can see the advantage, but kids with another fall sport would find it hard to get into a majors team.

Still baffled by the number of 12s who are not in Majors though.


That is our league - 4 charters (was 5 charters in the past), located in suburban Chicago.
We are easy to find on the internet, as some parents have observed, since no other league has a Supreme Division.


Players looking to play in one of the drafted divisions (Supreme for 9 and 10 year olds, or Majors for 11 and 12 year olds) must register by the last week of January and attend tryouts. Each team in those divisions have two or more roster openings that will be filled from those who attend this supplemental tryout (other spots were filled months ago). Those players that are not drafted, do not attend the supplemental tryout, or register after the last week of January will be assigned to a Minors Division team (AA for 9 and 10 year olds, or AAA for 11 and 12 year olds).

As discussed above, the league website states, "Twelve's that try out and meet minimum skill sets will be drafted to the Majors teams to extent that there are openings." Openings at the Majors are limited to eight players in a given age group, so website is telling twelves they must be good enough and there must be an opening in order to play in the Majors Division. Waivers are needed for 12 year olds playing in the Minors Division per LLI rules.

The drafted divisions begin practicing when they choose, with some having started in the fall and others not. The assigned Minors Divisions have teams formed in mid-March. Games begin in early April, with drafted divisions starting one week earlier than Minor Divisions.

#18 Lou Barbieri

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 01:41 AM

The "General Information Guide" linked on your league's website is very interesting!

So many things to comment on, so little time! :o
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#19 RB56

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 03:44 AM

The "General Information Guide" linked on your league's website is very interesting!

So many things to comment on, so little time! :o

 

Agree.  Many have raised operating questions in the past, with the usual response some form of "our DA is okay with it", regardless of what the Rule Book or Operating Manual states.

 

Two Board Members resigned in the past year.  Heard second hand that at least one of those two raised issues directly with Williamsport, resulting in some appreciated changes.  A few remaining Board Members like to do their own thang when it comes to rules and regulations.  Doubt the Operating Manual has ever been read or acknowledged.



#20 Jeremy

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 05:02 AM

I would guess less than half my board has ever read the OM.



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