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#1 RB56

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Posted 20 November 2015 - 10:01 PM

Guest_Smart: Don't want to hijack this post and I have no problem if a group of LL players/parents want to get together and play in a local tournament or two hosted by other local organizations but it needs to be done "outside" of the local LL.
That is, it can't be sponsored by, paid for, equipment/uniforms supplied by, etc..., the local LL.
Also, LL insurance is not in effect for such games.

That said, LL teams can play against non-LL teams with approval (Special Games Request Non-LL Teams).

 

Lou,

 

During the spring, we see a good number of local Little Leagues entering teams in a non-affiliated Sunday Baseball League (i.e., during Regular Season) -- presumably have received Little League approval via "Application for Special Games With Non-Little League Teams" (guessing that).  This Sunday Baseball League is described under the FAQ section of its website as:

 

"What is Sunday baseball?  It is a baseball league that was created to provide house players an opportunity to play 10 extra games against other towns during the baseball season. Many of the players in the league will become all-star players in July representing their house league in tournaments."  (Cut and Paste from website).

 

Probably should start a separate thread, but how can a local Little League enter a team in such a league and be in compliance with LLI Rules and Regulations?  Are not entering a Regular Season team, but a collection of the top league players that do end up being the Tournament Team.  Appears to be a means to have Tournament Teams practicing and playing well in advance of the June 15th or two weeks prior to the start of the tournament limitation.

 

This Sunday Baseball League uses PONY Rules and does offer separate insurance for participants.  Question is how would/could this comply with Regulation IX Special Games of Little League Rules which states, "Teams participating in Special Games during the regular season shall be regular season teams only."?



#2 Lou Barbieri

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Posted 20 November 2015 - 10:55 PM

It "sounds" like what they are doing is not allowed per LL Rules/Regulations.
They would obviously need a Waiver from Williamsport to do this and I'm pretty sure the Janitor would not approve it (although stranger things have happened).

The Special Games Request against non-LL teams would not cover the situation you described.

If someone "turned them in" to the Region/Williamsport they could be in trouble, unless, of course, these players/teams are operating "independently" from the local LL.

You said "a good number" of local LLs participate in this Sunday league, that really makes this situation "interesting" !!!
Don't want any specific league information but I'd be interested in knowing what "part" of the country this is.

By the way, I did a web search and found this in Charlotte !!!
http://www.challengebaseball.com
A couple of familiar local LL names on that Website!

#3 B_Hanlon

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Posted 21 November 2015 - 02:10 AM

Sounds pretty sketchy to me, putting it on their website is not smart.

Let's face it, many leagues have skirted the spirit of All Star teams by doubling as travel teams.
Right or wrong they have found a way to legally maneuver around the rules.
In your instance it seems they are blatantly violating the rules, especially if the local Little League is providing the financing,

#4 RB56

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Posted 21 November 2015 - 03:52 PM

It "sounds" like what they are doing is not allowed per LL Rules/Regulations.
They would obviously need a Waiver from Williamsport to do this and I'm pretty sure the Janitor would not approve it (although stranger things have happened).

The Special Games Request against non-LL teams would not cover the situation you described.

If someone "turned them in" to the Region/Williamsport they could be in trouble, unless, of course, these players/teams are operating "independently" from the local LL.

You said "a good number" of local LLs participate in this Sunday league, that really makes this situation "interesting" !!!
Don't want any specific league information but I'd be interested in knowing what "part" of the country this is.

By the way, I did a web search and found this in Charlotte !!!
http://www.challengebaseball.com
A couple of familiar local LL names on that Website!

 

We are in the "central" part of the country.  Over half the leagues in our district participate in this Sunday Baseball League.  The following snippets are pulled directly from local Little Leagues' website (identification removed).

 

·         Local League A:  “The __________ play in the __________ league, which allows the __________ Players the opportunity to play on their __________ Little League in-house team to develop their skills and fundamentals while also playing part-time travel baseball games on Sundays (April-June)."

 

·         Local League B:  “The program's goal will be to keep local players together to train and become successful baseball players while always coordinating with local Little Leagues to maintain their viability.”  [Comment:  Affiliated Travel Program – Must play in specific local Little League to participate at the younger age levels].

 

·         Local League C:  “In addition to the above programs, during the spring season, there will be tryouts for teams to play approximate 8 game travel schedule usually on Sundays.  This is commonly referred to as the Sunday League.

 

·         Local League D:  “The __________ is a part time travel program that is run by and part of the __________ located in __________. The __________ decided to create the __________ program to give those youth baseball players in the area a chance to play additional baseball games during the Spring and Summer while still allowing them to play on their regular season Little League teams.”

 

Again, these snippets are pulled directly from the local Little Leagues' website.

 

What we struggle with is how these arrangements comply with LLI Rules and Regulations in terms of running an "affiliated" travel program and/or supporting participation in non-sanctioned leagues/events.

 

Don't most, if not all, league constitutions prohibit running "affiliated" travel programs?  Sample Constitution found in the 2015 Operating Manual states, "The Local League shall devote its entire energies to the activities authorized by such charter and it shall not be affiliated with any other program or organization or operate any other program."  (Page 100).

 

Participation in non-sanctioned leagues/events also seems very limited, absent a Waiver from the Charter Committee.  The 2015 Little League Rule Book states, "A local Little League is not permitted to sponsor, administer, underwrite or otherwise support, any team or teams, any individual or group, for the purpose of participating in a non-Little League Baseball program or event."  (Page 22).

 

The latter regulation is very broadly written, and would appear to prohibit participation in a part-time Sunday travel league absent a waiver.



#5 Lou Barbieri

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Posted 21 November 2015 - 07:34 PM

Many local LLs put together "travel teams" that are "independent" from the local league (no LL finances, equipment, uniforms, insurance provided).
That "may" be the case here.

That said, advertising it on a local LL Website does "raise the question".

You are correct in that if these teams are sponsored/supported by the local LL that would be in violation of LL Rules/Regulations.
If discovered, it would almost certainly result in expulsion from "The Tournament".

#6 Mike_Hirschman

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Posted 21 November 2015 - 08:22 PM

What blows me away is that there are LEGAL ways to do these things and people just choose to be ignorant about it...
Even the original posted could be legal until they are using PONY rules.
For several years, there have been "travel model" test cases approved by the Charter Committee during the regular season.
But it is usually all chartered LL's and all using LL rules.

#7 Jeremy

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Posted 21 November 2015 - 09:40 PM

I would like our Jr softball team to be able to play our Jr High team......When they started the school team a few years back it took our Jr program from two teams down to one....our two teams use to play each other every Friday and travel on weekends, now we're having trouble even finding weekend games......I was thinking about asking for a waiver but I think the school wouldn't be able to on their end even if we had a waiver with LL.

#8 Jeremy

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Posted 21 November 2015 - 09:45 PM

....plus the school team and our Jr team have different age alignments our Jr is 13-15(15's have waivers) and school is 11-14 but only one or two 11's...one being my kid.

#9 Lou Barbieri

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Posted 22 November 2015 - 03:03 AM

Very unlikely that LL would approve playing a School Team (IMO).
In addition, schools are generally not allowed to play non-school teams.
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#10 Mike_Hirschman

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Posted 22 November 2015 - 02:18 PM

Jeremy... the one way I could see that getting approved is IF it is a loosely affiliated school team like many are here in NC. The schools aren't actually governing the middle school teams here. They don't use middle school funding and, in essence, are nothing more than a club team without national affiliation. In that, you might be able to get a non-LL special games, but you would need to buy insurance for that school team, follow LL rules, etc.

 

Of course, under special games at that level, you might also get away with using tourney rules. I don't think regular season only is stipulated on the non-LL form...

 

BTW - Junior softball is 12-14, not 13-15. Sooooo.... you might want to look into that.



#11 Jeremy

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Posted 22 November 2015 - 09:05 PM

We've dual rostered a few 12's in majors and juniors just to give us numbers on the Jr side so I know 12's can play and we always get waivers for the 15's, they can't pitch.

Our school team isn't loosely affiliated....I know I would run into more trouble on the school side of things.

#12 RB56

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Posted 22 November 2015 - 10:07 PM

Many local LLs put together "travel teams" that are "independent" from the local league (no LL finances, equipment, uniforms, insurance provided).
That "may" be the case here.

That said, advertising it on a local LL Website does "raise the question".

You are correct in that if these teams are sponsored/supported by the local LL that would be in violation of LL Rules/Regulations.
If discovered, it would almost certainly result in expulsion from "The Tournament".

 

The truly "independent" aspect seems to be missing in many cases, especially given how broadly the LLI regulation is written (i.e., "not permitted to sponsor, administer, underwrite or otherwise support").  As Lou noted, advertising on the local Little League website may raise a question.  Likewise, discussing how "best" to operate a part-time travel team during a local Little League Board of Directors meeting would also seem questionable.  Ordering part-time travel team uniforms as part of a larger Little League order would seem questionable (save dollars through volume discount from uniform supplier).  Free use of local Little League fields, which are not made accessible to other travel teams, would seem questionable.

 

We have seen organizations set up a "youth sports association" and then place Little League on one side of the organization chart and travel baseball teams on the other side of the organization chart (would still be affiliated, by definition).  Top league in the district has a separate Board of Directors for its "affiliated" travel program, including its own treasurer, etc.  However, a few members of the travel team board also sit on the local Little League board which seems to be in conflict with Page 15 of the 2015 Operating Manual ("No Officer or Board member of a Little League and no District Administrator or other representative of a group of Little Leagues shall, at the same time, hold office or be a member of the Board of any other youth baseball/softball league or function as an official or representative of such a program.").

 

Can a local Little League's top manager even coach an "independent" travel team?  Sample Constitution found in the 2015 Operating Manual states, "Regular Members should not be actively engaged in the promotion and/or operation of any other baseball/softball program."  Again, a very broadly worded regulation/limitation.

 

Would like to find more information on the "travel model" test cases approved by the Charter Committee that Mike referred to earlier on this thread.



#13 Plesh

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Posted 23 November 2015 - 01:09 PM

Most of the kids playing on LL All Star teams are playing travel baseball as well these days. Some LL's are affiliated with a travel program like you mentioned i.e. kids are required to sign up for LL to be eligible to play in travel. Some places don't have a travel organization, but each team is their own separate program (that's what we do on our side of town). The travel teams/ programs/ organization all have separate insurance, separate finances, play with different rules, etc. And like you said, most of the board members, managers, and coaches for your local LL are probably running the show on the travel side as well. LL is okay with this set up as long the travel insurance, finances, etc. are separate from LL (they have to be fine with it or everyone might be out of LL at this point).

 

However, a LL entering a tournament like you mentioned seems illegal, but we obviously don't have all the details.



#14 Mike_Hirschman

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Posted 23 November 2015 - 01:56 PM

RB56... A good example is NY-08. Dan Cavallo, the long-time DA, previously served on the International BOD and might have even been on the BOD when he began the program. It has evolved over time from things I have seen (from a distance) with the launching of the intermediate division.

 

http://www.district8ll.com/

 

There are certainly some significant differences in what they were doing with it. That said, the last things posted on that site are 2014, so I can't speak to whether that was active in 2015. I do believe, however, that is close to Rich's backyard if he happens to see this.



#15 DCBaseball

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Posted 23 November 2015 - 03:02 PM

One league in our District just founded a separate 501 c3 in order to further push the travel movement forward from (1) 12U team that play together this Fall in NVTBL and was made up of the presumed 2016 Tournament team to (4) teams in 9U, 10U, 11U and 12U for the Spring. The VP of the League registered the domain name and used his business address to do so: http://www.capcityll...ut_us/our_board

 

Domain info:http://whois.icann.o...asebaseball.com

 

They are an older, well funded league and their ability to deliver this extension to LL gives them an enormous advantage in the season ending tournaments. Just this Fall the team of presumed 2016 all-stars has played more than 20 highly competitive games together. They have been coached in most games by the same parent/coach that is also VP of the league, was bench coach for the 2015 team that played in Bristol, head coach of the 9/10 team in 2014 that played into the regionals, and now is the de facto leader of the separate non-profit. 

 

If this is "legal" than the other younger, less well funded leagues, really have no chance in the post season. Further, with the choices available to kids based on school locations....kids are leaving the other leagues to go to this league.

 

 

 

 

From their info sheet handed out a recent meeting:

 

CHEVY CHASE BASEBALL
 
Is Chevy Chase Baseball an Actual Organization?
 
Yes. Chevy Chase Baseball, Inc. (“CCB”) is a Washington, DC 501c3 corporation founded on August 21, 
 
2015 and granted full IRS tax-exempt status on October 21, 2015. CCB’s teams are fully insured.
 
How is Chevy Chase Baseball Different from Other Travel Teams?
 
CCB was founded by parents that were looking for affordable options for their kids to play competitive 
 
baseball in a way that complemented their Little League experience. CCB employs a hybrid model of paid 
 
coaches at practices and parent managers coaching games. This keeps our costs down, with the money 
 
spent where we believe it will have the most impact. CCB is a non-profit organization that is priced in a 
 
way to cover the costs of each team (travel league and tournament fees, paid practice coaches, uniforms, 
 
umpire fees, etc.) and cover the overhead expenses of CCB (website, legal, CCB corporate insurance, etc.). 
 
CCB is not designed to make a profit for the organization. It is anticipated that player dues will be 
 
augmented by sponsorship from local businesses, and donations from parents and businesses.
 
Does Chevy Chase Baseball have any Teams?
 
Yes. CCB has a 12U Team that played in the Fall 2015 season in the Northern Virginia Travel Baseball 
 
League (nvtbl.org) AAA division. The NVTBL is the most prominent Travel Baseball league in the 
 
Washington, DC area, with over 500 teams playing from 8U all the way to 19U.
 
What is Travel Baseball?
 
In its simplest definition, travel baseball simply means it is not officially Little League Baseball, and is 
 
therefore not overseen by the World Little League Baseball organization in Williamsport, PA. Travel 
 
baseball teams are not bound by geographical boundaries such as Little League teams, nor do travel 
 
baseball teams need to abide by the rules of Little League Baseball. For example, Travel 11U and 12U 
 
teams allow primary leading and stealing and play with 50ft pitching distance and 70ft bases. Travel 
 
baseball teams are try-out based teams, so not every child that wishes to play may make a team. 
 
Additionally, travel baseball teams usually play more games and enter more tournaments than a 
 
traditional little league team.
 
What is NVTBL and how does it work?
 
NVTBL is the largest travel baseball league in the Washington, DC area. NVTBL has teams from 
 
Washington, DC, Maryland, Virginia and West Virginia, although the teams tend to be concentrated in 
 
Virginia. To put it into simple terms, NVTBL is the organization that registers the teams, helps organize 
 
games and fields, sponsors tournaments, etc. Think of it as the CapCity or Northwest Little League of 
 
NVTBL has three divisions, AA, AAA and Elite/Metro. AA is the division for teams that are the least 
 
competitive, while Elite/Metro is for a highly select group of teams that NVTBL management must observe 
 
and deem worthy of such designation. CCB will likely enter its teams in the AAA division for each age 
 
How many teams / what age groups are you planning for CCB in Spring 2016?
 
CCB intends to have at least one team at the 12U, 11U and 10U/9U age groups in Spring 2016. Based 
 
upon demand, it is possible there will be multiple teams in each age group. CCB is planning on teams of 
 
12 players each for the 12U and 11U teams. CCB is expecting a larger combined 10U/9U team of up to 22 
 
players, with the expectation that the team will be divided into two groups and each split a double-header 
 
How Do I know the Age group of my Child?
 
The Travel baseball age determinations are as follows:
 
12U: Born 05/01/03 – 04/30/04
 
11U: Born 05/01/04 – 04/30/05
 
10U: Born 05/01/05 – 04/30/06
 
9U: Born 05/01/06 – 04/30/07
 
Who will Coach CCB Teams?
 
CCB will operate under a hybrid model, combining professional coaches and parent managers. CCB is 
 
currently engaged in discussions with coaches from local high schools such as Gonzaga, as well as recent 
 
college graduates that have played college baseball and are looking to coach. CCB’s plan is to have paid 
 
coaches run the weekly practices, while parent managers will coach the games. It is possible that certain 
 
teams may have the paid coaches also help coach at games, however, it is CCB’s philosophy that the paid 
 
coaches are more critical at practice than at the games.
 
Parent manager(s) for the Spring 2016 season for each age group are as follows:
 
12U: Brendan Quinn and John Marsh ([email protected] and 
 
 
11U: Damon Jones and Jim Sullivan ([email protected] and 
 
 
10U/9U: Chris Ertz ([email protected])
 
What is the CCB Practice and Game Commitment?
 
Each CCB team will practice one day per week for 2 hours. Games are doubleheaders always played on 
 
Sundays and it is expected that each 12U and 11U team will play both games of the double-header. CCB 
 
plans to have a larger 10U/9U team of 20-22 players, with the expectation that the team will be split into 
 
two groups, and each team will play one game of the doubleheader.
 
CCB understands that players will have to miss practices and games from time-to-time, which is why our 
 
teams will have 12 players. However, CCB does expect players to make nearly all practices and games and 
 
provide team manager/coaches with plenty of notice regarding absences. Any player that records too 
 
many non-injury absences may not be invited back to the team for the following season.
 
When will you hold tryouts for CCB?
 
We plan to hold CCB tryouts in early Winter 2016
 
How will you decide on who makes a CCB team?
 
CCB’s goal is to give dedicated and engaged players the opportunity to play more baseball. As such, we 
 
are not looking to turn away any player that we feel can make a strong contribution to the team. It is our 
 
experience that based on available slots and expected tryout numbers, that our teams will be capped at 
 
12 players, however, if we see an especially strong class, we will make exceptions.
 
When will the CCB Season Start?
 
CCB will likely enter teams in a St. Patrick’s Day tournament which will be on or around March 17th. It is 
 
possible that the team will have not practiced prior to this tournament. The NVTBL Spring season will 
 
likely start on or around April 3,, 2016, and we expect each team to have practiced two times prior to the 
 
official season start. The season will probably run until the first weekend of June. CCB plans to enter each 
 
team in a Memorial Day weekend tournament and possibly the end of season NVTBL tournament.
 
How Competitively do You Plan to Manage the Teams/Games?
 
The NVTBL league is a competitive league, with some VA teams having several hundred kids tryout for 
 
only 12 slots per team. CCB will be competitive in how we select players for our team (with perceived 
 
dedication and motivation important in addition to raw talent), however, we view the Travel baseball 
 
season as developmental. All players will bat and all players will play infield and outfield positions. We 
 
may manage the rosters somewhat more competitively in tournament situations, but not during the 
 
How much does CCB Cost?
 
CCB is designed to be an affordable Travel baseball option. We anticipate charging between $250 - $300 
 
per player for the Spring 2016 season.
 
Where will CCB Practice / Play Games?
 
All CCB teams expect to practice and play their home games at Takoma #2 and Takoma #4. Takoma #2 & 
 
#4 are located at 4th and Van Buren Sts NW, and 3rd and Sheridan Sts NW, respectively.
 
Away games can be played as close as other DC-based travel teams (e.g., Guy Mason or other DC fields) 
 
or as far as Round Hill, VA (50+ miles from DC).
 
Will I have to Tryout for the Team Each Season?
 
Players that show dedication and enthusiasm on the field and seem to be progressing as players will not 
 
be made to try out for a team on which they currently reside. As CCB expands, we may shift a player from 
 
one team to another if we think that player will have a better experience on that other team, however, 
 
we have no plan to do so at this time.
 
What does CCB Offer above 12U?
 
CCB has no teams above 12U. It is possible that CCB will have a 13U team in Fall 2016, however, that 
 
decision will not be made until late Spring 2016. It is CCB’s view that there are a number of 13U+ travel 
 
teams that are affiliated with local high schools, and therefore many of CCB’s players will likely switch to 
 
those teams at that time.


#16 Mike_Hirschman

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Posted 23 November 2015 - 03:28 PM

One way that some of these organizations will "turn themselves in" is when they start adjusting their birthdate cutoff to LL's new standards...



#17 DCBaseball

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Posted 23 November 2015 - 03:42 PM

Mike....are there certain parts of the template constitution that are not negotiable?, such as: "Members should not be actively engaged in the promotion and/or operation of any other baseball/softball program." 



#18 Plesh

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Posted 23 November 2015 - 03:43 PM

One way that some of these organizations will "turn themselves in" is when they start adjusting their birthdate cutoff to LL's new standards...

 

Our travel teams use the LL cutoff date even though the league (playing by CR/BR rules) is still using April 30. Just makes more sense.



#19 Plesh

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Posted 23 November 2015 - 03:45 PM

And regardless, LL doesn't care if a travel organization is "partnered" with a LL or if they have similar board members as long as they have a separate board, by-laws, finances, etc.



#20 DCBaseball

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Posted 23 November 2015 - 03:57 PM

Phlesh...the sample constitution would seem to indicate otherwise: 

 

ARTICLE III - MEMBERSHIP

 

....

 

SECTION 3

 

Other Affiliations.

 

a - Members, whether Regular or Player, shall not be required to be affiliated with another organization or group to qualify as members of the Local League.

 

b -  Regular Members should not be actively engaged in the promotion and/or operation of any other baseball/softball program.





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