Jump to content


Photo

Little League Team Expansion


41 replies to this topic

#21 Jeremy

Jeremy

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~

  • Administrators
  • 1,307 posts
  • LocationNorthern California

Posted 23 September 2015 - 06:42 AM

LL needs to get rid of property players.....and even though it gives me a huge advantage the next two years they need to do away with managers option on their own kids, maybe protect them in the first round only regardless of age.

#22 Lou Barbieri

Lou Barbieri

    Advanced Member

  • Moderators
  • 2,863 posts
  • LocationThe Villages, Florida

Posted 23 September 2015 - 11:18 AM

A few Congresses ago, LL tried to require a "re-draft" of players every year.
The motion failed (54% in favor, 46% opposed).
The reason most voted No, at least at the roundtable I was at, was it's an "Option" and shouldn't be mandated.
LL is often criticized for mandating too many things and if Plan A (Property Players) works for a league why should they not be allowed to use it.

I think a lot of leagues have changed from Plan A (Property Players) to a re-draft (Plan B or Alternate Plan B ).
In my opinion, Alternate Plan B is the way to go.

===========================
The Manager Option, in my opinion, is a big advantage (although I do know of a case or two where it actually made a manager pick his kid in a round higher than what the kid was rated!).
Maybe someone will send in a Proposed Agenda Item for the 2016 Regional Roundtables to change this.
Probably should also change the Option for a Returning Coach although that happens a lot less frequently but it is one way some managers use to help "stack" a team.

#23 WhereisLLI

WhereisLLI

    New Member

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 2 posts

Posted 23 September 2015 - 06:23 PM

 
Well, sadly the Regional Roundtables can produce all the new rules they want.  When it comes to our board, apparently the rules do not apply.
 

I was also told, some coaches were refusing to draft until they saw a waiver from LLI.  It seems it came down to the coaches being more concerned about loosing the opportunity to coach after being told the board would find someone else to coach/manage.  This board would appear be more concerned about being in control than following the rules and/or having a negative effect on some kids experience.  Also, what a horrible example to set for kids.  You don't need to follow rules if you act ignorant and if anyone questions you about not following the rules, you threaten to get rid of them.  If I recall correctly, per the LL operating manual, the 2015 board should not even be appointing the managers/coaches for 2016. I hope the board has a waiver for this as well.  Although, I don't know why I even mention another rule violation.  It's not like LLI will do anything about it.

 

Concerned, you pose a very good question. However, you know what they say when you assume.  :)   I've heard about so many other questionable decisions by this board, it's starting to feel like if LLI ever did decided to really look into it, we would end up losing our LL charter.  This board either has no idea or doesn't care about what they are doing is wrong on so many levels, AND doesn't want any input on how to fix it.

 

It is about the kids still, right?  I really wonder about LLI.  For them, it sure doesn't appear to be about the kids anymore.  At least not until the media gets a hold of it or until a "rule violating" team goes to Williamsport, PA.

 

Maybe the media should be our leagues next step??

 

 

 

 



#24 Dave Poe

Dave Poe

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 489 posts

Posted 24 September 2015 - 03:43 AM

You keep harping about where LL is.
Call them and ask them. Email them.
It's that simple and they do answer.
Present to someone either in your Regional Office or in Williamsport what the issues are.
Lay it out for them.

A key piece of advice is to leave out anything that personally applies to you and/or any personal opinions.
Stick to the facts that are in the public domain.
They can't act on what they don't know about.

Going on a forum an complaining isn't going to get you or your league anywhere.

Another piece of advice - don't take anyone's word that the higher ups have approved anything unless you see it in writing.
I once had a manager try to appeal to the automatic one game suspension for an ejection. He called WP and the person told him he could appeal. I was confused since I knew he couldn't. When I spoke to the person at WP, I found out that this manager told him a completed different story of what happened. The WP person thought he was being asked about appealing an additional penalty issued by the BOD when that wasn't the case at all.

Call or email your region. Call or email someone in WP. They aren't in hiding....
  • amutz, Lou Barbieri and Plesh like this

#25 amutz

amutz

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 827 posts
  • LocationNorCal

Posted 24 September 2015 - 04:45 PM

A few Congresses ago, LL tried to require a "re-draft" of players every year.
The motion failed (54% in favor, 46% opposed).
The reason most voted No, at least at the roundtable I was at, was it's an "Option" and shouldn't be mandated.
LL is often criticized for mandating too many things and if Plan A (Property Players) works for a league why should they not be allowed to use it.

I think a lot of leagues have changed from Plan A (Property Players) to a re-draft (Plan B or Alternate Plan B ).
In my opinion, Alternate Plan B is the way to go.

===========================
The Manager Option, in my opinion, is a big advantage (although I do know of a case or two where it actually made a manager pick his kid in a round higher than what the kid was rated!).
Maybe someone will send in a Proposed Agenda Item for the 2016 Regional Roundtables to change this.
Probably should also change the Option for a Returning Coach although that happens a lot less frequently but it is one way some managers use to help "stack" a team.

 

The Manager Option can occasionally be a big advantage but I think the 'negatives' and backlash of splitting a kid and parent who are going through their 'little league journey' together outweigh the occasional parity benefit.   Instead of removing manager option, have the league seed a managers kids in an appropriate round with guidance of all the managers and player agent.



#26 Plesh

Plesh

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 945 posts
  • LocationNorthern New Jersey

Posted 24 September 2015 - 05:38 PM

The Manager Option can occasionally be a big advantage but I think the 'negatives' and backlash of splitting a kid and parent who are going through their 'little league journey' together outweigh the occasional parity benefit.   Instead of removing manager option, have the league seed a managers kids in an appropriate round with guidance of all the managers and player agent.

 

 

I'm not too fond of the Manager Option as stated in the OM. What we do is exactly this, we rank all the kids accordingly and they are placed in the appropriate round. Quite frequently the managers' kids are in the upper 2 rounds, so it is just unfair to place them lower.



#27 Lou Barbieri

Lou Barbieri

    Advanced Member

  • Moderators
  • 2,863 posts
  • LocationThe Villages, Florida

Posted 24 September 2015 - 10:47 PM

I'm not saying do away with it, the manager should "get his kid".
That said, the specified draft rounds are too high (in my opinion).

Allowing a manager to wait till the 3rd, 4th or 5th round to select their child (depending on age) is often a big advantage.

The player should be "rated" (probably by the PA or some non-biased individual) and then be drafted in the appropriate round (with players of similar ratings).

I've seen a lot of manager kids taken in round 3 or 4 that would have otherwise been 1st rounders.
So, in essence, the manager gets two 1st round picks.

I know, because I took advantage of it with my three sons!!!
  • amutz likes this

#28 concerned

concerned

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 20 posts

Posted 25 September 2015 - 03:45 AM

As a concerned parent, I appreciate all of the insights and suggestions made concerning different dilemmas families face while trying to relive the fond memories of "Little League" from our childhood.

Unfortunately, after contacting WP via email, explaining the problem and citing the 2015 Operating Manual or Rules Book, the rule and in some cases the page numbers, WP does not respond to the email and the Local League continues believing their actions are in compliance with WP.

With the 2016 drafted teams announced - 10 of the 12 roster positions are filled, any redraft penalizes the kids who are excited about their new teammates.

I completely understand why the 2016 Board should make all decisions concerning the 2016 Season. Unfortunately, since the 2015 Board created this disaster, the 2016 Board will be left trying to "cleanup" this mess and salvage the season for the players and their families who unknowingly enabled the past Board to make decisions that will affect this season.

Following this forum's advice, both Regional and WP were contacted, the outcome remained the same.

#29 Lou Barbieri

Lou Barbieri

    Advanced Member

  • Moderators
  • 2,863 posts
  • LocationThe Villages, Florida

Posted 29 September 2015 - 05:30 PM

I e:Mailed the "page" to two different Regional Offices.
Both responded that it is NOT an official LL document and to use it you would need an Approved Waiver.
Both Regions said the only "Approved" Plans are the ones described in the Operating Manual.

#30 concerned

concerned

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 20 posts

Posted 29 September 2015 - 09:53 PM

Thank you for verifying this information. Although there appears to be consensus that the only draft methods allowed are the ones listed in the Operating Manual. Since this method appears in a Little League 2015 Player Training Manual, WP may have granted the waiver to this organization after the draft occurred.

Communication is key to any organization's success - it's unfortunate that WP did not respond to any inquiries other than possibly contact the Local League President. As mentioned in previous posting, it's not official without a written waiver.

#31 amutz

amutz

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 827 posts
  • LocationNorCal

Posted 30 September 2015 - 03:17 PM

I would not assume a waiver was granted; too many things out of place.  In this case, the new 2016 local board could (and arguably should) nullify the draft and the manager selection and start over.  That would have to be driven from the local level but the board certainly has the authority to do it.   There would be a lot of work to do with parent communication but a motivated board could do it if they felt it was the right thing to do for the kids.   



#32 Jamief

Jamief

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 388 posts

Posted 30 September 2015 - 04:56 PM

Hopefully the draft will be one of the things from the operating manual that will be newly added to the 2016 rule books.

Read the most recent newsletter and a change for 2016 is rolling the OM into the rule book.
  • amutz likes this

#33 Lou Barbieri

Lou Barbieri

    Advanced Member

  • Moderators
  • 2,863 posts
  • LocationThe Villages, Florida

Posted 30 September 2015 - 08:27 PM

I have suggested for many years that at least the "Player Selection (Draft)" portion of the OM be put in the Rulebook.
This stuff shouldn't be a "secret" and known only by the few people with copies of the OM.
Combining the entire OM and Rulebook sounds interesting but the term "Little Green Book" certainly would not apply any longer.
It would be more like the "Big Green Book"!!! ;o)

==========
By the way, I'm not sure where the term "2015 Little League Player Agent Training Manual" came from but to my knowledge there is no "Official" Little League publication with that name.
So I think this is possibly a local league document that they wanted to sound "official" so they put a fancy name on it.
Of course, I could be wrong!

#34 Jeremy

Jeremy

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~

  • Administrators
  • 1,307 posts
  • LocationNorthern California

Posted 30 September 2015 - 10:03 PM

I think putting the OM in the rule book is a great idea, minus the 10 pages on lighting and things like that.

It will help keep boards in check, so many boards rely on the members being ignorant to LL operations.

It will also help cut down on members incorrectly complaining about things....things that are out of the local boards hands.

It makes it hard for people to learn LL operations when the rules are scattered throughout the Constitution, LLOM, LLRB and By-Laws

#35 Lou Barbieri

Lou Barbieri

    Advanced Member

  • Moderators
  • 2,863 posts
  • LocationThe Villages, Florida

Posted 01 October 2015 - 06:36 PM

I have no problem with LL combining the books.
That said, I'm not too sure how much that will help with educating the members.
Members (parents) don't get rulebooks.
It should, on the other hand, at least help the managers (those that get and actually read the books).

#36 concerned

concerned

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 20 posts

Posted 01 October 2015 - 07:29 PM

Most people will not take the time to read through Operating Manuals or Rule Books and rely soley upon what other Little League Officials or Board Members say.  Those with personal agendas or priorities can easliy convince others - as stated in an earlier post

 

"Board members are there to be helpful volunteers but lack a baseball, softball & LL IQ and only a few strive to raise that IQ."

 

Below are links to view the cover page and the 2015 Player Manual:

 

 

Since WP does not respond to emails received that specifically questions rules and procedures, we are left speculating on the course of action that was taken. 



#37 Plesh

Plesh

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 945 posts
  • LocationNorthern New Jersey

Posted 01 October 2015 - 07:51 PM

When my dad was president of our LL, he always ordered twice as many rulebooks as necessary. If someone asked him about a rule, he showed them where it was in the RB and said keep it. No reason to keep people in the dark, especially about playing rules.

 

I like the idea of combining the RB and the OM, however, at some point it just becomes too much. Right now the RB has a lot of league operations info in it, but not the draft procedures (which go right along with selection of players/ teams found in the RB).

 

IMO they should make the rule book just the game related rules and the rest should be in the OM. Or just combine the 2 books. I hate having to swap back and forth between the regulations in the RB and things in the OM.



#38 Plesh

Plesh

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 945 posts
  • LocationNorthern New Jersey

Posted 01 October 2015 - 07:54 PM

Most people will not take the time to read through Operating Manuals or Rule Books and rely soley upon what other Little League Officials or Board Members say.  Those with personal agendas or priorities can easliy convince others - as stated in an earlier post

 

"Board members are there to be helpful volunteers but lack a baseball, softball & LL IQ and only a few strive to raise that IQ."

 

Below are links to view the cover page and the 2015 Player Manual:

 

 

Since WP does not respond to emails received that specifically questions rules and procedures, we are left speculating on the course of action that was taken. 

 

As speculated, we can all clearly see now that it is not an official LL document, just locally assembled by a couple of districts. I wonder how many other things are incorrect in there...



#39 Lou Barbieri

Lou Barbieri

    Advanced Member

  • Moderators
  • 2,863 posts
  • LocationThe Villages, Florida

Posted 01 October 2015 - 08:06 PM

Let's try it this way, how (why) would you use a 2015 document to select players for the 2016 season? !!!

This "Training Manual" was put together by two DAs, have they been contacted and asked about whether or not WP approved a Waiver for the Draft Plans that are not in the OM?
The "Published with LL Approval" doesn't necessarily mean that WP has reviewed and approved everything in it.
Looks like it's been "issued" every year since 2006, I wonder if it has been updated with every LL Rule/Regulation change since then.

You said WP has not replied to e:Mails, who in WP did the e:Mails go to?
What was sent to them (were they sent a copy of the cover pages and a copy of the page with the Draft Plan)?

Again, it might cause some issues with players/parents but I would hope the 2016 President and BOD would do their jobs and decide if different managers need to be appointed/approved and whether or not the teams need to be redrafted using one of the approved methods in the Operating Manual.

GOOD LUCK !!!

#40 concerned

concerned

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 20 posts

Posted 01 October 2015 - 09:06 PM

Numerous emails were sent to both WP and Regionals.
Unfortunately, the list of questionable actions which are not in compliance with LLI written rules increases.
The only people who are reprimanded or penalized are those who are requesting the organization to follow LLI written rules



Reply to this topic



  


0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users