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Illegal substitution


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#41 Mike_Hirschman

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Posted 30 April 2015 - 12:26 PM

Rich... you are making an assumption though... that's the whole point. There are rule sets that the person is a re-entering starter. Heck, we use that the term in the tournament rules for LL and it is used in the Big League rules, as well. 

 

YES, the principles in the sub rules are entirely different. But if you are spelling it out from LINE 100, it starts with "any player entering the game after the first pitch is classified as a substitute, regardless of whether they are entering the game for the first time or they are a re-entering player."

 

And in THAT is where the RIM (and the new A.R. notes) are VITAL to teaching people rules and regulations. 



#42 richives

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Posted 30 April 2015 - 02:40 PM

Last post.

 

A re-entering starter is a sub for the player he is replacing.  Correct? If not, why not?

 

So therefore treat him as a sub.  To me it's obvious.



#43 Jamief

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Posted 30 April 2015 - 03:39 PM

Rich it says the sub cannot be removed before meeting his/her MPR. The MPR for the rentering Starter doesn't , or IMO, shouldn't reset just because they re-enter the game.

For a starter it's 1/6 and need not be consecutive. It shouldn't magically become 2/12 just because they were put back in the line up.

#44 richives

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Posted 30 April 2015 - 06:17 PM

Rich it says the sub cannot be removed before meeting his/her MPR. The MPR for the rentering Starter doesn't , or IMO, shouldn't reset just because they re-enter the game.

For a starter it's 1/6 and need not be consecutive. It shouldn't magically become 2/12 just because they were put back in the line up.

 

That's not the issue here. This is about when a re-entry is allowed.



#45 Jamief

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Posted 30 April 2015 - 06:52 PM

Let me propose a scenario.

visiting team:

Starter 1: Bats 1st plays Defense on Bottom of 1

Starter 2: Bats 2nd plays defense in Bottom of 2

They 7 in the top of the 1st.

It's now top 2 and coach Puts in subs. For starters 1 and 2. These kids are now Subs 1 and 2. They both bat in Top 2 and go out to play defense in bottom of 2 and bottom of 3.

Coach realizes he need to get starter 1 and starter 2 back into the game. It's now the Bottom of 4 and he puts starter 1 back in for sub 1. Starter 2 is still on the bench and owed 3 more defensive outs. But sub 2 has been playing great ball.

Fast forward to bottom of 5. What part of the rule as written says that starter 2 cannot go in for starter 1 at this point. Starter 1 has completed his MPR and sub 2 has completed his MPR.

Nothing I read in the rules says that starter 1 cannot be taken out for for starter 2. There isn't a violation by putting starter 2 in for starter 1 in the bottom of 5.

Starter 2s sub(sub2) has completed MPR therefore starter 2 can go back in.

#46 RitaC

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Posted 03 May 2015 - 05:56 AM

One way to look at this, Lou, (because Rich is correct) is that every starter must sit for 6 outs and one at bat before returning.  It doesn't matter who his sub was.  The rule makes this very clear.  I don't understand why you can't see it.



#47 Lou Barbieri

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Posted 03 May 2015 - 11:40 AM

Rita, I totally agree that when a Sub replaces a Starter that the Starter cannot return until the Sub plays 6/1.
That's not the issue.

In the case Mike originally posted, the Starter plays 6/1 and is the replaced by a Sub.
The Sub plays 6/1 and now the Starter goes back in.

The question is, since the Starter has already met MPR does the Starter have to play 6/1 "again" before he/she can replaced?

In Mike's case, the Starter went back into the game in the top of the 5th and the manager wanted to put in a Sub (reenter a different Starter) to bat for him/her in the bottom of the 5th.

So, since the Starter has already met MPR can he be replaced or does he have to remain in the game until he meets 6/1 again?

#48 Mike_Hirschman

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Posted 12 May 2015 - 04:54 PM

I am glad this was posted this week before I forgot...

 

http://www.littlelea...rnament/faq.pdf

 

#28 doesn't refer to a a re-entering starter as a sub... it refers to the person as a re-entering starter. Hence, we use inconsistent language in our interps... 



#49 Guest_roger_*

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Posted 07 July 2017 - 05:46 PM

What's the penalty when a manger calls for an SPR and he puts in a starter rather than a substitute to run even after it was discovered three pitches later?

 



#50 richives

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Posted 07 July 2017 - 05:56 PM

.

The question is, since the Starter has already met MPR does the Starter have to play 6/1 "again" before he/she can replaced?

 

 

No, but he can't be replaced by the player that left the lineup when he came in.  The whole point of the rule is that you can't take sluggo out then reinsert him for wimpo three batters later.



#51 Mike_Hirschman

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Posted 12 July 2017 - 06:18 PM

You call the Janitor.

 

If I am the janitor, if nothing has happened other than three pitches, switch it back and he has lost one of his two SPRs. 

 

If something has happened other than the three pitches... I might still have the same ruling. Not quite sure... 



#52 Lou Barbieri

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Posted 13 July 2017 - 04:49 PM

Rich, in the Tournament, you can't take sluggo out and put him back in to bat for wimpy three batters later because sluggo is tied to his spot in the batting order.

#53 richives

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Posted 13 July 2017 - 06:31 PM

Rich, in the Tournament, you can't take sluggo out and put him back in to bat for wimpy three batters later because sluggo is tied to his spot in the batting order.

 

But you can in regular season. The OP didn't specify which.



#54 Jeremy

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Posted 13 July 2017 - 07:22 PM

Umm, I thought no matter the rule set or what MP is, if you come out offensively you can't come back in till either your old spot in the batting order is up again or has passed (if not married)...Guess I'm going to actually have to read this thread.

#55 richives

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Posted 14 July 2017 - 03:43 AM

Umm, I thought no matter the rule set or what MP is, if you come out offensively you can't come back in till either your old spot in the batting order is up again or has passed (if not married)...Guess I'm going to actually have to read this thread.

 

Regular season: You can't come back - no matter where in the order - until the player that went in for you has played 6 defensive outs AND batted once.

 

Tournament: You can't come back in - must be same slot - until the player that went in for you has met MPR - which varies depending on the number of players present at the start of the game.



#56 Jeremy

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Posted 14 July 2017 - 08:20 AM

Regular Season....Yes, I know the MP rule.

Tournament.....Again agree. I've coached my share of AllStar teams since they changed MP based on number of players at a game.

#57 Mike_Hirschman

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Posted 14 July 2017 - 01:43 PM

Jeremy.... it depends. If you are juniors and below and you have the flip-flop (both players have met MPR), you could change those two players from pitch to pitch, base to base if you so choose. 

 

In this case, you had an improper SPR. In the regular season, you could just make him into a sub (assuming he is a legal substitution at that point) because players can re-enter into any slot. 

 

In the tournament, you can't necessarily do that. That's why I said you call The Hill. If it has only been three pitches, I would put the original kid on base and they lose an SPR for that inning and one of the two for the game. 



#58 richives

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Posted 14 July 2017 - 03:16 PM

Regular Season....Yes, I know the MP rule.

Tournament.....Again agree. I've coached my share of AllStar teams since they changed MP based on number of players at a game.


It isn't about MPR - it's about when you can sub.

#59 B_Hanlon

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Posted 17 July 2017 - 05:35 PM

Correct answer is: It all depends on who picks up the phone.

I thought a few years back that in one of the FAQ's LL addressed illegal substitutions and the answer was that you just fix it as soon as you realize it.
I think it was one of those scenarios where the team that made the substitution made a rules violation and the other team did not pick up on it so they have some culpability/responsibility so lets just fix it.

That being said, this could have been a situational discussion, not a FAQ.



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