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Illegal substitution


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#1 RitaC

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Posted 24 April 2015 - 05:31 AM

Bottom of third, home team subs most of their 6 substitutes. Later, in the bottom of what you think is the fifth, he brings back a starter.

It turns out, the scorekeeper is new to the job. When the home team batted around in a previous inning she needed the next column but didn't know to cross out the little number and gives you the wrong inning when you ask. So it's really the bottom of the fourth. The returning sub steps into the box and completes her at bat when the defensive manager brings it up. (She thinks she's going to get an out.)

 

 

 

But what do you do now? 

 



#2 Mike_Hirschman

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Posted 24 April 2015 - 01:48 PM

OK.... so let me work through this and you can tell me if I am missing something. 

 

A bunch of subs came in bottom of three, so they have played defensively in top of 4 and all of those starters are not eligible to return until middle of the 5th (which is a rule I have never liked; so long as a sub has played six outs, we should be allowed to re-enter a starter for that sub regardless of how long the starter has sat). Did any subs come in earlier?

 

You don't have an out, obviously. You have an illegal sub that needs to be removed. If all six starters have not played six outs yet, you are royally screwed and have to fudge it somehow. (Who carries 15 players and doesn't use CBO?!? Who carries 15 players with MPR PERIOD?!?!?) If you have a sub that went in BEFORE bottom of 3rd, you might be able to force that starter to come back in top of 5 because the sub has played six outs at least... but not have the at-bat. So in that case, you are royally screwed again. 

 

In which case, you fire the player agent who decided to allow them to carry 15 players, you suspend the coach for violating MPR with an illegal sub, take the scorebook and wonk the rookie scorekeeper upside the head and either fudge the rules or send the kids home in a forfeit. 

 

How'd I do? 

 

PS: If you were able to force a starter re-entry, the sub is burned and the illegally inserted starter is burned. 



#3 richives

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Posted 24 April 2015 - 03:15 PM

2013 RIM Instructors comments:

 

Umpires are responsible for not allowing a starter to re-enter the game illegally. If a situation exists where a starter has re-entered too soon and it is not discovered until play has resumed, we have a possible protest. If discovered then, the re-entering starter is removed (since he/she re-entered improperly), the substitute has already left the game (albeit improperly) and the re-entering starter cannot return again in the game (since he/she already re-entered, improperly). The manager has “burned” two players when the umpire could have stopped it.

 

SO you remove the player on base. Then if there are no eligible subs the opposing manager picks who replaces him/her.

 

And because you had a potential protest situation you zing the opposing manager for allowing it to happen.



#4 Mike_Hirschman

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Posted 24 April 2015 - 04:29 PM

Where are you getting the opposing manager picks? That is listed in rules to cover injury and ejection... I don't know that I have seen that covering an illegal sub, though. 



#5 richives

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Posted 24 April 2015 - 06:48 PM

Where are you getting the opposing manager picks? That is listed in rules to cover injury and ejection... I don't know that I have seen that covering an illegal sub, though. 

 

3.03 Note 3.

 

NOTE: (3) If during a game either team is unable to place nine (9) players on the field due to illness, injury or ejection, or inability to make a legal substitution, the opposing manager shall select a player previously used in the line up to reenter the game, but only if use of all eligible players has exhausted the roster. A player ejected from the game is not eligible for re-entry.



#6 RitaC

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Posted 24 April 2015 - 08:10 PM

I just noticed that when rereading the rule during lunch.  I'm like Mike.  I have never had to use this before because I'm so careful about not letting the starters back too early.

 

So, if the game had continued when we discovered this (it was the bottom of the fifth and called due to light) the opposing manager would have been able to choose which of the players sitting on the bench could return.

 

My main lesson out of this: Make sure I have a conversation with the scorekeeper before the game so as to assess experience...



#7 Lou Barbieri

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Posted 24 April 2015 - 09:01 PM

Correct, if you ever get into a situation (no matter what the reason is) where a substitution needs to be made but there are no eligible subs, the opposing manager gets to pick who goes in.
Had this happen earlier this year when Mom took Junior home because she thought it was getting too cold.

#8 Jeremy

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Posted 24 April 2015 - 09:06 PM

I've never liked that rule.......I think in the past ten years I've got to pick maybe two or three times.....What am I looking for when I pick?...The fat kid who is sneaking an ice cream sandwich in the dugout crying how hot it is or the kid who looks like he wants to go back in the most.....LL spirt says one thing, winning strategy might say another.

#9 Lou Barbieri

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Posted 24 April 2015 - 09:28 PM

Jeremy, your job as a manager is to do whatever you can within the rules/regulations to help your team win (assuming it's not Tee-Ball!).
So, you should pick the weakest kid on the other team (heck, he most likely only gets MPR so you're giving him a chance for some extra PT).

I have known managers who asked the other manager who they would like to put back in and then that's who "they" chose !

As you say, it doesn't happen very often.

#10 richives

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Posted 24 April 2015 - 09:30 PM

It's there so Billy doesn't suddenly get sick and coach wants to put Flash in to replace him.



#11 Lou Barbieri

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Posted 24 April 2015 - 09:43 PM

I'm not saying it "never" happens but in my many many many years with youth baseball (soccer, basketball, football...) I don't recall a kid faking an illness or injury so he could be replaced by someone else! The kids want to play.

Now, a manager on the other hand !!!

#12 richives

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Posted 24 April 2015 - 09:54 PM

I'm not saying it "never" happens but in my many many many years with youth baseball (soccer, basketball, football...) I don't recall a kid faking an illness or injury so he could be replaced by someone else! The kids want to play.

Now, a manager on the other hand !!!

 

I didn't really mean that Billy was the instigator.  ;)



#13 Lou Barbieri

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Posted 26 April 2015 - 01:44 AM

A few years ago I was umpiring a majors game when the home team manager put his last sub in at the top of the 5th (the kid lived about 6 houses down from me and I actually drove him to the game).
So, he plays defense in the 5th and 6th - 6 defensive out, no problem.
When it comes time for him to get his at-bat in the bottom of the 6th, the manager comes out and tells me the kid feels sick and can't bat.
He had just come in from playing defense so I walk over to the dugout and ask Noah (that's his name) what's wrong?
Instead of telling me he doesn't feel well he says I wanted to bat but the coach told me I couldn't!

So, the manager gets an early shower (I ejected him for unsportsmanlike conduct!) and Noah gets to bat and he promptly singles (way to go).

At the "Ejection Hearing" the BOD suspended the manager for 3 games!!!
After all, it is for the kids isn't it?
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#14 Mike_Hirschman

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Posted 26 April 2015 - 02:43 PM

Thanks, Rich. I honestly didn't recall seeing that in there before. I remember injury and illness always and I can remember when we put eject in because I once forfeited a senior game after a kid got tossed with no eligibles... Old age must be setting in. 

 

Here is where I don't like the rule...

 

S1 and S2 play first two innings. Sub 1 and 2 play innings 3 & 4. S1 returns in top 5 after sub 1 has completed MPR... I would like to then be able to replace S1 with S2 in bottom of 5 since both have MPR complete. Give me that offense to defense option one time (since they only get one re-entry). 

 

Instead, ironically, we get the extremely liberal flip-flop rule at tournament time. 



#15 Lou Barbieri

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Posted 26 April 2015 - 04:03 PM

The part I don't like about 3.03 is that a manager can end up with an MPR violation for something he can't control!
How, it's easy, you put in a sub for the starter at the start of the second inning.
The sub gets injured prior to completing MPR and you can't put the starter back into the game, so, MPR violation.

Worst case is when the sub gets injured by getting hit by the opposing pitcher!
The other team injures one of your players and you get an MPR violation - what a Great Rule.

Here is an ”Exception” that I would propose as a change to 3.03:

3.03 - A player in the starting line-up who has been removed for a substitute may reenter the game once, in any position in the batting order, provided:

( a ) his or her substitute has completed one time at bat and;

( b ) has played defensively for a minimum of six (6) consecutive outs;

Exception: If the substitute is unable to complete both ( a ) and ( b ) above due to illness, injury or another reason, the starter may reenter the game once, anytime after he/she has sat out for 6 consecutive outs and his/her spot in the batting order has been completed one time.

( c ) pitchers once removed from the mound may not return as pitchers; Intermediate (50-70) Division/Junior/Senior: A pitcher remaining in the game, but moving to a different position, can return as a pitcher any time in the remainder of the game, but only once per game.

#16 Mike_Hirschman

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Posted 26 April 2015 - 08:35 PM

I somewhat agree, Lou... while you open up for hankie-pankie, though. In the instance you present, when I have had that happen, the suspension is waved and the kid has to play the additional MPR time the next game. Yes, you are still penalizing the team somewhat, but we don't want phantom illness or injury, either. 

 

I just don't get why you have to play MPR all over again when both players have already completed. (And yes, peanut gallery, I know a starter can come out prior to MPR completion...)



#17 Lou Barbieri

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Posted 26 April 2015 - 09:12 PM

Mike, for an MPR violation, unless the game is shortened, the manager penalty is mandatory (unless you get a Waiiver from Williamsport).
Do leagues "not impose" the manager penalty sometimes, yes, but it's still against the rules!

================
Mike, as for your S1 and S2 scenario, I could play devil's advocate and argue that what you wanted to do was pefectly legal !!!
Scenario:
S1 and S2 play the first two innings and each gets an at-bat (MPR is met).
Sub 1 and Sub 2 go in in the 3rd and play the 3rd and 4th and each gets an a-bat (MPR is met).
In the 5th you reenter S1 back in for Sub 1.
In the 6th you reenter S2 in for S1.

Nothing unusual intil you put in S2 for S1.
Sub 2 has met MPR so S2 can be reentered per 3.03(d).
So, why can't S2 replace S1?
3.03(e) doesn't apply to S1 because S1 didn't go in to replace a starter, S1 replaced Sub 1.
3.03 NOTE 1 says you can't replace a substitute prior to him/her meeting MPR.
S1 reentered as a substitute for Sub 1 but S1 has already met MPR so by repacing S1 with S2 you haven't violated NOTE 1.
So why can't you put S2 in for S1?
What rule does that violate?

#18 Mike_Hirschman

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Posted 27 April 2015 - 12:40 PM

On the suspension... I agree. Common sense prevailed, though. 

 

My understanding of the MPR interp is every time someone goes in, they have to complete MPR regardless of whether they have done so previously in that game. I did NOT read it that way for a long time and, in my early years, was "guilty of" doing the offense-to-defense.

 

I classified a re-entering starter as a re-entering starter, not as a substitute for a substitute as I was later told. And it was being related to 3.03 (e)... even though that is NOT what it says. 

 

Going back to the 2014 RIM Comments: The substitution requirement in 3.03 (1) and (2) states that a substitute must bat once and play six (6) consecutive defensive outs before being removed. This means that anyone who substitutes (a starter or non-starter) must meet the substitute requirements of 1 and 2.

 

2015 RIM: The substitution requirement in 3.03 (1) and (2) states that a substitute must bat once and play six (6) consecutive defensive outs before being removed. This means that anyone who substitutes (a starter or non-starter) must meet the substitute requirements of 1 and 2.

 

(I list both because we know there were considerable changes in the RIM structure and such this season.)

 

I am not saying I like it or that I think it makes a whole lot of sense... but any player entering the game after the first pitch of the game is a substitute, regardless of whether they were named as a starter on the line-up card. 



#19 richives

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Posted 27 April 2015 - 01:49 PM

It's there so you can't take insert Starter one back in for Sluggo and then immediately have Sluggo re-enter in a motre beneficial spot.  Just like with a regular sub.



#20 Mike_Hirschman

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Posted 27 April 2015 - 01:55 PM

And I'm saying for those few leagues that aren't using CBO these days, I think it would be good to give the coach an avenue for late-game strategy. Allows the other sub to stay in the game and gives you a starter-for-starter quick swap. 

 

We allow teams to SPR all night long these days. When the rule first existed (originally only in Big League), it was once per inning and only with someone who had not yet appeared in the game. Then it was expanded into other divisions that had MPR and had to be adjusted... to create more flexibility and opportunities for kids to play.

 

So how would this not accomplish the same thing? 





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