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Proposed Age Change (The second guessing begins......)

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#1 B_Hanlon

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Posted 27 January 2015 - 10:16 PM

Well, it appears that Little League has received so much negative feedback that they are now second guessing the age change and might even be open to new ideas. 

I'd say it is pretty apparent that they will continue to maintain their position that 13's should not be allowed on the small field.

 



#2 amutz

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Posted 27 January 2015 - 11:41 PM

2 alternative ideas free of charge:

 

1) Move the date from Jan 1 to Sept 1. This removes the 13s (barely) and puts more kids together with their grade age.

 

OR

 

2) Go back to the May 1 date and convert Williamsport and LLWS to 50/70 for 2018.   The new majors.



#3 B_Hanlon

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 01:55 AM

I'm thinking #1 might be the better option, that might take the "13's" off the field but you would still have the kids that are still 6' + so I'm not sure if the safety concern is satisfied with a 4 month push back in age.

#4 Jamief

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 02:41 AM

Was at Bristol over the weekend.

1) was the prevailing idea. With grandfathering the May-August '05

2) Others we ok with jan 1 grandfathering the May-Dec '05s

3) was to implement with the younger kids. Pushing out to 2022 or something.

Biggest issue with 2 is the huge group of LA12s in 2018 but it's a 1 and done issue. Kids born late in 2006 will have a tough time competing for tourney teams vs May '05s.

Everyone is saying the May '05 lose out on the tornament opportunity guessing more of the late '06 kids would be impacted if there is "grandfathering".

#5 Westfield Mike

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 03:48 AM

I was also at the Regional Seminar over the weekend, and it sounds like they will be distributing a survey on this issue in the coming weeks.

 

Personally, I would like to keep January 1 as the cutoff date and convert Williamsport to 50/70 so that Intermediate essentially becomes the new Majors. That's the best of both worlds.

 

As the plan is laid out now, a group of kids will lose a year of Majors in 2018. In the long term, kids will have to dual enroll in order to have a chance to compete in the Williamsport tournament. The new 12-13's should be playing on the midsize diamond, in my opinion. Why not go all in and do this the right way instead of settling somewhere in the middle?



#6 Guest_D. Michael_*

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 06:21 AM

What a shame if they backtrack.



#7 Adam T

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 01:53 PM

They should keep the December 31 age determination date, allow 2005 and older to use April 30 for the rest of their LL careers, and create additional tournament opportunities for the 2006 players.

 

It's too late to backtrack the December 31 date wholesale. Sept. 30 and grandfathering the 2005 and olders could have been a great option had they begun with that.



#8 amutz

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 03:39 PM

Leaving the December 31 date and grandfathering the May-Dec 2005 preserves 12yo year for those 8mo of players, but essentially takes it away from the May-Dec 2006 players since they will be at the tail end of a 20mo long age group.    Building another opportunity for those kids is the right thing to do - though I'm at a loss in terms of how to do it properly.   



#9 Adam T

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 04:00 PM

Leaving the December 31 date and grandfathering the May-Dec 2005 preserves 12yo year for those 8mo of players, but essentially takes it away from the May-Dec 2006 players since they will be at the tail end of a 20mo long age group.    Building another opportunity for those kids is the right thing to do - though I'm at a loss in terms of how to do it properly.   

 

It's true, the 2006 players would be getting the short end of the stick.

As a league you can add a second 9/10 tournament team in 2015 and 2016. (With DA approval.) Give 2006 players preference for the second 9/10 team in 2016. They may not fare well, but they might have some fun and improve for future years. The same thing can be done in 2017 when the 2006 players are LA11, add a second 10/11 team and give 2006 players preference on that 2nd team.

 

2018 is up in the air right now. LL will obviously have a plan by then. I hope an additional Majors tournament team is part of the plan. Maybe that would make for a HUGE long tournament? Maybe there is another solution?

 

Grandfather the 2006 players, born May - December, into the 2019 Majors division and the 11/12 tournament? A smaller percentage would return in 2019, reducing the impact on 2007 players. Maybe create a rule that if they are on a 11/12 tournament roster in 2018 they are not eligible to return in 2019? Of course this would be a pretty cumbersome solution.

 

In the meantime districts can also create a special games tournament for these 2006 players.



#10 B_Hanlon

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 05:21 PM

But isn't this a problem that will never end? If you placate that 8 year old age group the next age group will be up in arms feeling this has been slapped on them. I am not sure there is any easy solution other then just bite the bullet and get through it.



#11 Guest_D. Michael_*

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 05:55 PM

"They should keep the December 31 age determination date, allow 2005 and older to use April 30 for the rest of their LL careers, and create additional tournament opportunities for the 2006 players.

 

It's too late to backtrack the December 31 date wholesale. Sept. 30 and grandfathering the 2005 and olders could have been a great option had they begun with that."

 

Best suggestion I have heard yet! Super smart and fair!



#12 Adam T

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 05:57 PM

But isn't this a problem that will never end? If you placate that 8 year old age group the next age group will be up in arms feeling this has been slapped on them. I am not sure there is any easy solution other then just bite the bullet and get through it.

 

The idea is that 100% of players born in 2006 wouldn't come back in 2019. It would effectively shift part of the burden from the 2006 class to the 2007 class but not all of it. After 2019 nothing more would be done. A plan like that may be nice to broaden the negative effects to diminish the impact on the 2006 class, but it probably too complex to implement.

 

Biting the bullet and just getting it over with is probably the best option.

 

I really think LL will end up allowing 2005 players born May - Dec to play Majors in 2018. That will be the extent of the adjustment. No extra tournaments or anything. They may also adjust the maximum number of 12s that can be on a Majors team in 2018. (Maybe Majors teams can be all 12s in 2018?)



#13 amutz

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 06:04 PM

Hope a reasonable plan emerges; I have talked to parents who are looking to move their 2005/2006 birthday players to Pony over this, depending on the transition plan. 



#14 Westfield Mike

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 06:54 PM

Can someone explain why there has been no consideration for making Intermediate the new Majors and transitioning Williamsport to 50/70?

If the December 31 cutoff date was in place right now, there is no way that I would feel comfortable putting 13 year olds on a 90 foot diamond.

We have Babe Ruth in town, and I imagine that they will also change their age cutoffs. Based on what I said about 13 year olds not being ready for the big diamond, my guess is that Babe Ruth will move to 14-17 rather than 13-16.

What that means is that the Intermediate Division will become the landing place for all of those 13 year olds. I don't understand why no one else is considering the ramifications of how this age change will impact those players. The better players already want to play 50/70, and the new age changes will make it even more appropriate for them. As it stands, leagues are holding on to Majors so that they can offer those better players the chance to compete in the Williamsport tournament.

It seems that Little League has perfectly positioned itself by adding the Intermediate Division but is not planning to use it to its full potential.

#15 richives

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 07:08 PM

Can someone explain why there has been no consideration for making Intermediate the new Majors and transitioning Williamsport to 50/70?

 

 

Perhaps because so few leagues have adopted it.



#16 Westfield Mike

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 07:24 PM

I realize that not many have adopted Intermediate to date. Our league has stayed away from it, because we don't want to deal with all of the issues that dual enrollment brings. With that said, all other leagues in our district will be offering some form of 50/70 this season. I am guessing that this is also happening in other areas of the country, as well.

What are other leagues planning to do with 13 year olds in 2018? I don't think that people are thinking this through, because it's three years away.

#17 amutz

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 07:35 PM

 50/70 is still 1/10th the size of Majors in our league but next year could grow more. we are looking at how/when to convert a field to 50/70 full-time.   

 

My sense is we would accelerate conversion if Majors tournament & Williamsport was 50/70 in 2018.



#18 Dave Poe

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Posted 28 January 2015 - 11:03 PM

Mike W and others are on to something. For years I have argued that this transition may be the 10 year plan (couple with a merger of the junior & senior ranks).

Why not just mandate the 50/70 change for 2018? Leave the age cut off where it is and mandate 12 year olds to the Intermediate in 2018. Start to make a big deal about the Intermediate World Series now.

I would seriously looking 2018 looking like this:

MAJORS:
9-11
INTERMEDIATE
11-13
JUNIOR
13-15
SENIOR
16-18

#19 stan.staziak

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Posted 29 January 2015 - 03:57 AM

Can someone explain why there has been no consideration for making Intermediate the new Majors and transitioning Williamsport to 50/70?

If the December 31 cutoff date was in place right now, there is no way that I would feel comfortable putting 13 year olds on a 90 foot diamond.

We have Babe Ruth in town, and I imagine that they will also change their age cutoffs. Based on what I said about 13 year olds not being ready for the big diamond, my guess is that Babe Ruth will move to 14-17 rather than 13-16.

What that means is that the Intermediate Division will become the landing place for all of those 13 year olds. I don't understand why no one else is considering the ramifications of how this age change will impact those players. The better players already want to play 50/70, and the new age changes will make it even more appropriate for them. As it stands, leagues are holding on to Majors so that they can offer those better players the chance to compete in the Williamsport tournament.

It seems that Little League has perfectly positioned itself by adding the Intermediate Division but is not planning to use it to its full potential.

 

I completely disagree with this statement

 

13 YO's are so ready for the 60/90 diamond.  My son (who is small for his age) is 13 and played this past fall on the 90' diamond in BR and Travel. He played better than he ever has before.  The problem is not the 13 YO's but the kids who have not played baseball in 5+ years who decide to come back and try baseball again.  Those guys are light years behind the 13YO's who do just fine on the big field.

 

Babe Ruth doesn't have to move its age brackets.  The small field (referring to 50/70) is great up to 12 YO. Even some 12's would benefit more from the 90 foot field if they are in 7th grade.  7th graders should be on the big field since they are two years away from HS ball.  My mistake was not putting my 12YO on the big field in 7th grade. He is 13 and will be for his entire 8th grade year. He will have one fall and one spring season on the 90 foot field pre-HS. 



#20 Westfield Mike

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Posted 29 January 2015 - 04:56 AM

Stan - Let's agree to disagree. We have a fairly large league, and only a handful of our 12's are in 7th grade. The vast majority are in 6th grade. When the 2018 age cutoffs take effect, most 13's will be in 6th grade, and most 8th graders will be league age 15.





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