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Suspension for Not Meeting MPR


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#1 B_Hanlon

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 04:08 PM

Happens every year!

 

Home team manager has substitutions all plotted out to enter 3 subs on defense top of the 4th. Is up by a couple of runs and in Bottom 3rd with two outs a player slides into 2B. Player called out and a twisted ankle on the play, out of the game. One of the 3 subs enters for the injured player. Offense is shut down in the 4th and 5th, home team does not need to bat in bottom of 6th as they had the lead. Player gets 9 defensive outs but never gets the one required AB.  Report to Eastern Region and Tournament Committee comes back with 2 game suspension.

 

 

Get em in early coach!  



#2 Lou Barbieri

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 04:59 PM

Third out of the inning.

When the team went out on defense the manager should have put in his 3 subs where he wanted them in the line-up.

At that point he tells the plate ump he has an injured player.

Since he now has no legal subs the opposing manager gets to choose who replaces the injured player.

The manager could have avoided the MPR violation!



#3 B_Hanlon

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Posted 08 July 2014 - 09:12 PM

Interesting, I don't think he realized at the time what was going down. I wonder if your scenario would actually work with some hard nose Tournament Directors. If you placed the subs in on defense and could not field that injured girl could they stick it to you that you must sub for the injured player first?  



#4 Lou Barbieri

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Posted 09 July 2014 - 01:19 PM

Why would a TD get involved?

Substitutions are handled through the Umpire, a TD wouldn't get involved unless the other manager Protested.

What would be the basis for the Protest?

What Rule/Regulation was violated?

In other words, where in the Substitution Rule does it say that when you are putting in substitutes that you have to put in the sub for an injured player before you put in a sub for another player?



#5 Mike_Hirschman

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Posted 09 July 2014 - 04:23 PM

Yeah... I agree with Louis. The TD has no position in that. 



#6 B_Hanlon

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 03:36 AM

I can see if you left the injured player in on defense for one pitch, that legitimizes the substitution.
If the injury occurred and the player was safe and had to come out, the manager is screwed.
In this sitch I can see your point, I'm just struggling with it. I'm just envisioning a ump or TD or AHJ (authority having juristiction) saying to the manager. "Nope, you have to replace the injured player first"

I'll concede you guys are correct, but I'll throw in that it depends on which janitor picks up the phone if this gets elevated.

#7 Lou Barbieri

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 12:12 PM

Actually, even if the runner is injured and "safe" the manager still might be OK.

Put in a Special Pinch Runner and you still don't need to worry about subs until you go on defense !!!



#8 Mike_Hirschman

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Posted 10 July 2014 - 12:39 PM

Brian... if it gets to The Hill, at least the last several years, there has only been one janitor. I haven't had to go that route yet this year, though, fortunately.



#9 Lou Barbieri

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Posted 11 July 2014 - 01:11 PM

Going back to the original post where Williamsport  invoked the 2 game manager suspension, when calling the Region/Williamsport the ruling often depends on what information is given by the caller.

For Example:

1) Manager put in a sub in the top of the 4th, sub played 9 outs on defense but didn't get the required at bat.

2) Player was injured and manager was forced to put in a sub.  Because of the spot in the lineup the sub was placed he played 9 outs on defense but did not get to bat, his spot in the lineup did not come up again.  The manager had intended to put the sub in for a different player and if the manager was allowed to make the substitution he wanted the player would have met MPR.

 

#1 would most certainly result in a suspension.

#2 "might" not, although it certainly could.

 

When I was the TD and had to make a call to the Region I always had both managers there to "make sure" they heard what I said and I always asked them if there was anything they wanted to add.  Point is, you have to make those "up the chain" aware of all the facts so that they can make an informed decision.



#10 B_Hanlon

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 01:56 AM

I put the summary together the following day and it was worded very similar to #2, did not matter much 2 game suspension.

#11 richives

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Posted 12 July 2014 - 03:17 PM

They've probably heard of too many "injuries" causing lesser players to not get their MPR.



#12 Manny

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Posted 13 July 2014 - 03:57 PM

In other words, where in the Substitution Rule does it say that when you are putting in substitutes that you have to put in the sub for an injured player before you put in a sub for another player?


Nah, I don't think that flies, Lou.

Consider this scenario: Bobby Boomer misses a game-tying homer by a foot off the fence, and he's at second base. Tommy Taylor is up and fouls one off his foot, and it's apparent he can't continue. The team only has ten players on the roster, and Johnny Jones is the only sub, who is next to bat. So the manager decides he wants to put Johnny in as a pinch runner to substitute for Bobby, and nobody is now available to bat for Tommy, forcing the opposing manager to put Bobby up to bat.

To me, that dog don't hunt. The priority in bringing in subs has to address the shortfall in the batting order due to illness/injury/ejection first. There may not be an explicit rule that says that. But I feel the spirit and intent of the substitution rules must be met.
Manny Aponte

#13 richives

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 06:16 PM

Nah, I don't think that flies, Lou.

Consider this scenario: Bobby Boomer misses a game-tying homer by a foot off the fence, and he's at second base. Tommy Taylor is up and fouls one off his foot, and it's apparent he can't continue. The team only has ten players on the roster, and Johnny Jones is the only sub, who is next to bat. So the manager decides he wants to put Johnny in as a pinch runner to substitute for Bobby, and nobody is now available to bat for Tommy, forcing the opposing manager to put Bobby up to bat.

To me, that dog don't hunt. The priority in bringing in subs has to address the shortfall in the batting order due to illness/injury/ejection first. There may not be an explicit rule that says that. But I feel the spirit and intent of the substitution rules must be met.

 

1B is open - walk Bobby Boomer.



#14 Lou Barbieri

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Posted 14 July 2014 - 08:11 PM

I talked to one of the Janitors at Williamsport today (one of the higher paid Janitors at that!).

I described what happened and told him what I would have done (put the 3 subs in and then tell the ump I need the other manager to choose a sub for my injured player).

His answer was that would be perfectly legal and he would not have a problem with it being done that way.

 

So, if it happens to me I hope he's the Janitor that answers my Protest !!!



#15 Manny

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Posted 15 July 2014 - 10:13 AM

I talked to one of the Janitors at Williamsport today (one of the higher paid Janitors at that!).
I described what happened and told him what I would have done (put the 3 subs in and then tell the ump I need the other manager to choose a sub for my injured player).
His answer was that would be perfectly legal and he would not have a problem with it being done that way.
 
So, if it happens to me I hope he's the Janitor that answers my Protest !!!


You should have asked him my scenario and see if he believes a manager can manipulate the line-up like that.

Rule 3.03 says in part, "NOTE: (3) If during a game either team is unable to place nine (9) players on the field due to illness, injury or ejection, or inability to make a legal substitution..." At the time it was determined the player was injured and couldn't continue, there was an ability to make a legal substitution. That implies to me that that has precedence over making other substitutions to suddenly put oneself unable to legally replace the injured player. Again, I don't think that lives up to the spirit and intent of the rules of baseball. But since I'm not at the level of janitor at any paid amount, what do I know.
Manny Aponte

#16 Mike_Hirschman

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Posted 15 July 2014 - 01:49 PM

Manny... the player's ability to play, however, doesn't come up until they have to take the field for something (unless they are still a baserunner when the injury occurs). Just like we say... you sub on offense when you are a batter or runner and you sub on defense at any point while you are on defense... so what Lou is saying could be completely on the up and up. 



#17 richives

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Posted 15 July 2014 - 02:07 PM

You should have asked him my scenario and see if he believes a manager can manipulate the line-up like that.

Rule 3.03 says in part, "NOTE: (3) If during a game either team is unable to place nine (9) players on the field due to illness, injury or ejection, or inability to make a legal substitution..." At the time it was determined the player was injured and couldn't continue, there was an ability to make a legal substitution. That implies to me that that has precedence over making other substitutions to suddenly put oneself unable to legally replace the injured player. Again, I don't think that lives up to the spirit and intent of the rules of baseball. But since I'm not at the level of janitor at any paid amount, what do I know.

 

You don't need to sub until it's time for that player to bat or go on defense.

 

Maybe you could get an ankle taped well enough and/or "walked off" in the interim.  No decision necessary yet.



#18 B_Hanlon

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Posted 15 July 2014 - 07:16 PM

I had the same exact thing happen to me last night, again!

 

I was TD and tracking substitutions, 11/12 district final. Bottom 4th injured player, send in SPR. Their last sub was on deck when they recorded the 3rd out of the inning so the coach changed to sub for the injured player. Took field in 5th and game was suspended with a downpour. The player will be about 6th or 7th coming around to bat but as it is home team who knows what will happen in the 5th or 6th once game is resumed.

 

I bit my tongue while he substituted just thinking about what has been discussed in the post. Even if they marched the kid out for one pitch and "pitched out" they could legalize as well as using Lou's scenario.  It was tough not to offer advise but I thought that would have been way out of line.



#19 Lou Barbieri

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 12:33 AM

As a TD I've been in similar situations where I "thought about giving advice" but never did (not my job).

That said, if a manager came to me and asked if what he/she wanted to do was "legal" I would answer them, BUT I would also tell them that if the other manager Protested that I could not guarantee what the final answer from Williamsport would be!



#20 Mike_Hirschman

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 03:37 PM

Yeah... nothing you can do, Brian. Only in the instance that they do something illegal (or they actually think to ask the question) can you speak up... as hard as that is sometimes.





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