Jump to content


Photo

Manager's Right to a Board Member


14 replies to this topic

#1 JM Lugo

JM Lugo

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 53 posts
  • LocationSouthern California

Posted 21 October 2019 - 03:55 AM

Does the Rule Book allow a Manager to disregard an umpire's rule interpretation and call a Duty Board Member for their interpretation of a disputed rule?
For Example;
A pitched ball gets lodged in the backstop's fence. Umpire awards 1 base to R1, the offensive managers argues that it is a 2 base award. The umpire tells the manager that it is only a 1 base award. The manager disagrees and requests the Duty Board Member with the Rule Book.

So, does the manager have a right/option to call the Board Member for an appeal of the umpire's interpretation?

#2 richives

richives

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,159 posts
  • LocationOwego, NY

Posted 21 October 2019 - 04:55 AM

Does the Rule Book allow a Manager to disregard an umpire's rule interpretation and call a Duty Board Member for their interpretation of a disputed rule?
For Example;
A pitched ball gets lodged in the backstop's fence. Umpire awards 1 base to R1, the offensive managers argues that it is a 2 base award. The umpire tells the manager that it is only a 1 base award. The manager disagrees and requests the Duty Board Member with the Rule Book.

So, does the manager have a right/option to call the Board Member for an appeal of the umpire's interpretation?

 

He can protest the game. The umpire can ask the board member if he wishes.  

 

You'll lose. A lodged pitched ball is a one base award.  7.05(h) in the LL Rule Book  The ball is out of play. You can use 5.09(g), 7.05(g), and 7.05(i) to deduce that. You cannot use 7.05(f or g) for the award because it's a pitch, not a batted ball or a throw. Rule 2.00 "Pitch" and "Throw" to see that.



#3 Lou Barbieri

Lou Barbieri

    Advanced Member

  • Moderators
  • 3,192 posts
  • LocationThe Villages, Florida

Posted 21 October 2019 - 04:27 PM

The manager can Protest which should result in the umpires getting together and making a final ruling. If the manager doesn't like the ruling, record the Protest and resume play.
The Board Member On Duty has no role in the Protest process unless asked by the umpire.

This is different in a Tournament when the Tournament Director does get involved in resolving a Protest.

#4 Gator Y

Gator Y

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 11 posts

Posted 22 October 2019 - 05:27 PM

What obligation does the umpire have if the manager can’t even site the applicable rule. Show me the relevant rule otherwise file a protest.

#5 richives

richives

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,159 posts
  • LocationOwego, NY

Posted 22 October 2019 - 06:07 PM

What obligation does the umpire have if the manager can’t even site the applicable rule. Show me the relevant rule otherwise file a protest.

 

The manager  just needs to say he's protesting and what he thinks the ruling should be.  The umpire then needs to follow the protest protocol. If he sticks with the original call the manager then says he's playing under protest. Within 24 hours the manager needs to submit the formal protest in writing. There is no requirement that he cite chapter and verse.



#6 Lou Barbieri

Lou Barbieri

    Advanced Member

  • Moderators
  • 3,192 posts
  • LocationThe Villages, Florida

Posted 22 October 2019 - 11:28 PM

What obligation does the umpire have if the manager can’t even site the applicable rule. Show me the relevant rule otherwise file a protest.


"Show me the relevant rule" - are you saying you want the manager to pull out a rulebook?

#7 richives

richives

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,159 posts
  • LocationOwego, NY

Posted 24 October 2019 - 04:21 PM

"Show me the relevant rule" - are you saying you want the manager to pull out a rulebook?

 

I did that once. Stood on 3B and pulled out the book because the clueless (which is why I didn't get tossed) umpire pulled the "one base on an overthrow" on me with the winning run on 2B. 


  • amutz likes this

#8 JM Lugo

JM Lugo

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 53 posts
  • LocationSouthern California

Posted 25 October 2019 - 05:38 AM

Thanks for the posts.
In my League, there's a belief that a manager has a right to demand a review of a Rule by the Board Member on Duty if the manager doesn't agree with the umpire.
I've been trying to get the managers to follow the correct process when this happens.
I've made progress but still have some pushback.
Anyways, thanks.

#9 Lou Barbieri

Lou Barbieri

    Advanced Member

  • Moderators
  • 3,192 posts
  • LocationThe Villages, Florida

Posted 25 October 2019 - 10:24 PM

Ask the manager where in the rulebook does it say that he/she has the right to ask the BOD Member on Duty to review an empire's ruling.
Again, it's not a Tournament, there is no TD to go to.

Heck, many (most) BOD Members are not rule experts in the first place and many (most) don't carry rulebooks.
Why do the Umpires allow it in the first place?

I guess the other approach is to tell the BOD Members that if they are asked to review an umpire ruling their answer should be to simply tell the manager of he/she disagrees with a rule interpretation then Protest the call and the Protest Committee will decide what to do.

IF you have guidelines/responsibilities for the BOD Member On Duty then add a sentence or two that says he/she is NOT responsible for reviewing calls made by umpires or for resolving Protests.

#10 Jeremy

Jeremy

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~

  • Administrators
  • 1,344 posts
  • LocationNorthern California

Posted 30 October 2019 - 06:37 PM

>>>>I've been trying to get the managers to follow the correct process when this happens.

Who cares what process the manager THINKS should happen, especially if they’ve been corrected.

The ump should say “Sorry that’s not how it works” and tell the kids to play ball. The ump has tools to deal with the manager if he continues.

This can all be avoided with a good begining of the year managers and coach meeting ran be the President and UIC.

#11 Ron

Ron

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 117 posts

Posted 30 October 2019 - 10:31 PM

Local leagues (like mine years ago) have a Local Rule allowing the Board Member on Duty (BOD)  to come out if the Manager disagrees with the umpire determination.  This was only for regular season games.  I don't know if they still do it that way. 

 

I was a Manager on Duty and saw a play and insuing dispute.  I found the BOD and informed her what was brewing and explained the play to her along with the sections of the rule book.  She knew little to nothing about rule interpretation.  After our short discussion, she was asked to go out and decide.  She went out, discussed the dispute, and upheld the umpire decision.  If I was not there she would not have known what to do, just like most BOD's. 



#12 Lou Barbieri

Lou Barbieri

    Advanced Member

  • Moderators
  • 3,192 posts
  • LocationThe Villages, Florida

Posted 30 October 2019 - 11:53 PM

As the saying goes "Local Rules are made by Fools"!

Also, your example points out what I said above, most BOD Members are not rule experts.

The appeal/protest process is in the rulebook, why mess with it?

By the way, what's a Manager On Duty?

#13 rsnyder6

rsnyder6

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 438 posts

Posted 01 November 2019 - 01:31 AM

If I'm at a field, as BoD or just there, I sometimes get managers that want me to overrule an umpire.

I'm pretty good with the rules and do help to train the umpires. I explain that they need to address the umpires, and my job does not include changing their call.

(Particularly bizarre is when they want me to change a judgment call that I haven't seen. "But he was clearly out.")

If I see an issue, I will talk to the umpires after the game, we are working to help them improve.

At the coaches' meeting, we explain to the managers that we do not undercut our umpires, and how to deal with disagreements. To the umpires, we explain we will support them, but we expect them to know the rules and get it right, and if they don’t to learn.

I find the umpires usually get things right more than managers, and when they don't managers often don't notice. :) 



#14 Jeremy

Jeremy

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~

  • Administrators
  • 1,344 posts
  • LocationNorthern California

Posted 01 November 2019 - 08:48 PM

I can’t even go to my fields without everyone (parents, mangers, umps) trying to drag me into the game and I wasn’t even on the board the past two years.

The field: “Come over here Jeremy, we need your help”

Me: “I’m nobody right now, I’m not interfering, the manager has all the tools to solve this”

Me: *Keeps walking

The field: *Looks at me like I’m an a**h***
  • rsnyder6 likes this

#15 Ron

Ron

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 117 posts

Posted 01 November 2019 - 09:12 PM

Lou:  The league wanted two official people at the field to oversee things on game days so they had a Board Member and a Manager of a team.  Each manager is assigned to two days of Manager on Duty to assist in opening fields, getting snack shack ready, making sure umpires are there (if not, then umpire a game), and ultimately help close after the day is over, especially having the two people oversee the money being closed out for the snack shack. 





Reply to this topic



  


0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users