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Unequal numbers of Players for a Majors game - Penalty?


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#1 amutz

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Posted 26 April 2018 - 09:21 PM

Our league has a local rule that both Majors teams need to play the same number of players +/- 1 in a game, and request Pool Players if they know some will be absent.
Typically a team with fewer players has an advantage since they will substitute fewer players into the lineup.
At least that is how it often works.

We're considering a Penalty (one out per 9) if a team shows with 9 or 10 players vs 12 on another team, to give an incentive to the managers to notify the Player Agent ahead of time.
Right now the rule has no Penalty.

Do any other leagues have a Policy and issue around this?

#2 richives

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Posted 26 April 2018 - 09:29 PM

Our league has a local rule that both Majors teams need to play the same number of players +/- 1 in a game, and request pool players if they know some will be absent. Typically a team with fewer players has an advantage since they will substitute fewer players into the lineup. At least that is how it often works.

We're considering a penalty (one out per 9) if a team shows with 9 or 10 players vs 12 on another team, to incent managers to notify the player agent ahead of time. Right now the rule has no penalty.

Do any other leagues have a policy and issue around this?


Never heard of such a rule.

How far ahead of time? Many times I had players just not show up.

And the Pool Players are the better players that want to play more so the team using them gets that advantage.
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#3 amutz

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Posted 26 April 2018 - 09:47 PM

The 'backstory' here is that some teams will have a weaker player or two who shows less frequently for games.
The team with more players feels they are disadvantaged.

My perception (like yours) is that the outcome of being 'short a player or two' is unpredictable, and a good pool player can tip it further in favor of the short-rostered team.
I have mixed feelings about this, but I'm duly seeing if anyone else has such a rule.

#4 Lou Barbieri

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Posted 26 April 2018 - 11:05 PM

Another crazy Local Rule !!! B)
Managers whine and leagues try to fix "made-up problems" with more Local Rules.
Don't let the inmates run the asylum.


By the way, to make it an "out" you would need a Waiver from Williamsport which you will NOT get.


As previously stated, often the manager does not know when a player (or two) won't show.
Also, as previously stated, Pool Players are often the better players in the league so it's an advantage to have them replace the weaker players.

Years ago (before Pool Players) when I was a manager I called every player the night before each game to make sure who would/wouldn't be there.
Even then, sometimes one wouldn't show or one that said they wouldn't be there would show up.
Such is life in Little League.
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#5 Ron

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Posted 26 April 2018 - 11:06 PM

I've never heard of such a thing. We've had teams struggle getting 9 to the field, and others always have all of their players. Sometimes it is the ability of the manager and coaches to motivate the players and families. Sometimes it is just luck of the draw.

Why would players who want to play get penalized for others on their team not showing up? That doesn't seem far. You are putting in place a rule that will pit teammates against teammates on the same team because the parents aren't bringing the players.

As for pool players, most of them want to play and get a lot of playing time (in LL or in travel ball). My son was always a pool player and if he was called, he always played. Some teams didn't like that others get pool players because they can be a good player thereby given an advantage.

My son, as a pool player, actually got a walk off RBI by flying out to right field with a runner at 3rd for the team to win and go to the TOC. Interestingly, just before the pitch, the runner at 3rd told my son to hit it anywhere in right field and he would score.
The Manager protested because my son was not on the team and when he was called he always played thereby giving an advantage.
Protest overruled.

#6 amutz

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Posted 26 April 2018 - 11:28 PM

Appreciate the feedback and I'll recommend we encourage using Pool Players without penalizing the short-handed team.

#7 Lou Barbieri

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Posted 27 April 2018 - 12:17 AM

Ron: We use Pool Players during the Regular Season but we do not allow Pool Players in our Playoffs!
In the Playoffs you play with your team and that's it.

We don't want a Pool Player from another team affecting the outcome of a Playoff Game.
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#8 Plesh

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Posted 27 April 2018 - 12:30 PM

In our playoffs we assign pool players based on the round the player was taken in the draft they are replacing.

So say you have 11 kids on your team and 3 aren't going to make a playoff game.
Of those 3 kids, the highest round drafted was 2nd.
So the Player Agent (me) will contact the other 2nd rounders for a pool player.
As long as both managers agree (which they always do) then we're good to go.

#9 Lou Barbieri

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Posted 27 April 2018 - 02:42 PM

Devil's Advocate:
If I'm the opposing manager and the other team is down to 8 and is missing their #2, 9 and 11 players why would I agree with them replacing their #2 with another #2?
Why not have them replace #9 or 11?

It's the Playoffs, isn't it the manager's job to do what he/she can go put the team in the best position to win?

#10 Plesh

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Posted 27 April 2018 - 03:38 PM

You replace the highest pick to make it as fair as possible.
The pool player cannot pitch anyway so they're already at a big disadvantage.

We only do it when the team is going to have 8 (or less) players for a playoff game.
We just want to keep the games as even and competitive as possible.

#11 amutz

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Posted 27 April 2018 - 05:11 PM

For playoffs, our league doesn't use pool players either.
A team who has lost one or more players for the rest of season must immediately draft a replacement player from minors.
We haven't had teams down to under 9 except due to school events, and we try pretty hard to avoid major school events now.

#12 Ron

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Posted 27 April 2018 - 06:42 PM

Our Local Rules did not have a distinction between Playoffs and Regular season.  They have a list of pool players and the league rep is required to call them in the order they are on the list.  We don't have the list so we can't see who the next pool player is.  I've had to use pool players a few times.  A couple of times I had pool players that were not going to benefit me other than to prevent a forfeit.  We played as hard as we could, and had fun.

 

For my son as a pool player on the day in question, it just happened that the team was short players unexpectedly.  The Manager fully expected a full team but something happened, either school or some other activity that was not communicated to him.  He was actually missing some good players  The Manager and players were calling families trying to find out where they were. The league rep started calling pool players and got down to my son who was available.  My son had no intentions on playing that day.

 

The Manager that needed the pool player is NOT one that would tell people to stay home just to win a game.  He's actually had low ranking players show up late to a game and ask if they should just sit out.  He always brought them into the game immediately and got them on the field ASAP to hopefully get their MPR.  He would take the risk himself because he believed that the game belonged to the kids.

 

Our pool players must play in right field and bat 9th.  If you have more than one pool player they start in positions 9 then 8 then 7, etc.



#13 Lou Barbieri

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Posted 27 April 2018 - 06:45 PM

By replacing the highest drafted missing player you are not making it fair you are giving them an advantage!
They get the better player replaced and don't have to replace the lesser skilled players, how is that fair to the other team?I

I guess if the opposing manager agrees to it...
What happens if the opposing manager doesn't agree?

By the way, how often does a team not have 9 for a Playoff Game?

#14 Plesh

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Posted 27 April 2018 - 07:30 PM

Having your top pitcher or 2nd best pitcher not there isn't an advantage at all.
Sure you only bat 9 instead of 11, but pitching is far more important.

If the opposing manager doesn't agree, the PA proposes another kid in that round/ skill level until both agree.

I'd say every year we have one or two playoffs games at each level that need a pool player. We usually have teams of 11, maybe 12.

Last year we squeezed out 6 teams of 10 (which was disaster, do not recommend) and I needed 3 pool players for one of my playoff games and 2 for the other. Injuries and kids just not showing up.

#15 Lou Barbieri

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Posted 27 April 2018 - 08:04 PM

So, the real problem is your Roster sizes.
No way you should have 6 teams of 10.
That's a disaster waiting to happen.
Easy to say in hind-sight but you should have gone with five teams of 12.

There is a reason why teams are supposed to have 12 players!
With 12 it's rare that you don't get at least 9 at a game.

#16 rsnyder6

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Posted 27 April 2018 - 11:57 PM

For playoffs, our league doesn't use pool players either.
A team who has lost one or more players for the rest of season must immediately draft a replacement player from minors.
We haven't had teams down to under 9 except due to school events, and we try pretty hard to avoid major school events now.

We only allow players on that team for playoffs also. I think it is the fairest way. It usually is not a problem, heck everyone shows up for playoffs, but we forfeited a playoff game once because of it.
Two players from the local parochial school were done a couple weeks before the public schools and left for vacation. One came down with a migraine, and the fourth, well I spoke with mom 2 hours, 1 hour, and 30 minutes before game time. I guess he may still be on his way.

We sat in the drizzle as the clock ticked away.

#17 richives

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Posted 28 April 2018 - 02:36 PM

Devil's Advocate:
If I'm the opposing manager and the other team is down to 8 and is missing their #2, 9 and 11 players why would I agree with them replacing their #2 with another #2?
 

 

Because you might need to do the same thing next game.



#18 Lou Barbieri

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Posted 28 April 2018 - 02:52 PM

It's the Playoffs, if we don't win this game there might not be a next game!
Win today then worry about tomorrow.

In the 10+ years that I managed I don't recall ever having less than 9 players at a game, let alone less than 9 at a Playoff game (and that was before there were Pool Players).
Maybe I was just lucky!

#19 rsnyder6

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Posted 29 April 2018 - 03:08 AM

It's the Playoffs, if we don't win this game there might not be a next game!
Win today then worry about tomorrow.

In the 10+ years that I managed I don't recall ever having less than 9 players at a game, let alone less than 9 at a Playoff game (and that was before there were Pool Players).
Maybe I was just lucky!

The one playoff game was the only one I ever had fewer than 9 players at.
Having 9 was never an issue, except occasionally when there were multiple late school practices.

What really hurt was the two kids that went on vacation before the season ended.

I felt bad for the kid that never showed up.
He was one that mom dropped off, and then left.
Dad was out of the picture, and mom never stayed for a game.
He and I would hang out after games, talk, and wait for mom to show up.
Sometimes for almost a hour.

Coaches seem to have more of an issue getting kids to show up then even five years ago.
But some coaches almost always have a full team, and other are always short.

#20 richives

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Posted 29 April 2018 - 04:12 AM

It's the Playoffs, if we don't win this game there might not be a next game!
Win today then worry about tomorrow.


Depends on where in the bracket you are.
But you don't even want to start the playoffs with a rule that can disadvantage your team.



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