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Mandatory Play - Tournament Only.


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#1 rsnyder6

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Posted 11 April 2018 - 08:07 PM

Beginning this year, a manager's failure/refusal to insert players into the line-up as outlined in the new rule shall result in immediate ejection of the manager and removal for the remainder of the International Tournament, without replacement.
The umpire-in-chief or other individual designated by the game Tournament Director in consultation with the official scorekeeper, shall advise both team managers, at the appropriate time as outlined in the new rule, of their obligation to insert all players who have not completed their mandatory play requirement.

****

Last year's incident had some fallout.

#2 Lou Barbieri

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Posted 11 April 2018 - 08:56 PM

That Rule Change was passed at Congress and is NOT in the printed Rulebooks.
Leagues need to make sure their managers are aware of ALL of the 2018 rule/regulation changes (Regular Season and Tournament).

==============
By the way, the manager must ensure all players meet MPR even if not notified by the umpire/scorekeeper/game official.
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#3 Plesh

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Posted 12 April 2018 - 12:12 PM

https://ll-productio...ment-Rule-9.pdf

 

Here's the whole thing with the changes in red:

 

9. MANDATORY PLAY 8- to 10-Year Old Division, 9- to 11-Year-Old Division, Little League, Intermediate (50-70) Division, and Junior League: If a tournament team has thirteen (13) or more eligible players in uniform at a game, then every player on a team roster shall participate in each game for a minimum of one (1) at bat. If a tournament team has twelve (12) or fewer eligible players in uniform at a game, then every player on a team roster shall participate in each game for a minimum of six (6) consecutive defensive outs and bat at least one (1) time.

 

a) Prior to the start of play in the top of the fourth inning (Intermediate/Junior Divisions: fifth inning), the umpire-in-chief or other individual designated by the game Tournament Director in consultation with the official scorekeeper, shall advise both team managers of their obligation to insert all players who have not completed their mandatory play requirement into the line-up as outlined below. A manager’s failure/refusal to insert players into the line-up as outlined below shall result in immediate ejection of the manager and removal for the remainder of the International Tournament.

 

1. If a team has 12 or fewer players in uniform at the start of a game, and is:

 

a. Visiting Team: Any player(s) who has yet to enter the game to meet the defensive requirement of mandatory play must be inserted prior to the first pitch or play in the bottom half of the fourth inning (Intermediate/Junior: fifth inning) into a position in the line-up that will ensure all requirements of mandatory play will be satisfied, absent a shortened game, including one at-bat.

 

b. Home Team: Any player(s) who has yet to enter the game to meet the defensive requirement of mandatory play must be inserted prior to the first pitch or play in the top half of the fifth inning (Intermediate/Junior: sixth inning) into a position in the line-up that will ensure all requirements of mandatory play will be satisfied, absent a shortened game, including one at-bat.

 

2. If a team has 13 or more players in uniform at the start of a game, players must be inserted into the line-up to bat offensively during the:

 

a. Visiting Team: fourth or fifth inning, or as one of the first three batters in the sixth inning (Intermediate/Junior: fifth or sixth inning, or as one of the first three batters in the seventh inning), that will allow their one at-bat to be satisfied.

 

b. Home Team: fourth inning or as one of the first three batters in the fifth inning (Intermediate/Junior: fifth inning or as one of the first three batters in sixth inning), that will allow their one at-bat to be satisfied.

 

b ) Managers are solely responsible for ensuring that all players fulfill the requirements of mandatory play, even if notification is not made.

 

c) There is no exception to this rule unless the game is shortened for any reason. NOTE: A game is not considered shortened if the home team does not complete the offensive half of the sixth or seventh inning (or any extra inning) due to winning the game.

 

d) Failure to meet the mandatory play requirements in this rule is a basis for protest. If one or more players on a roster do not meet this requirement, and if protested or brought to the Tournament Committee’s attention, it shall result (by action of the Tournament Committee) in the removal of the team’s manager, without replacement, for the remainder of the International Tournament. Additional penalties (including but not limited to forfeiture of a game, additional mandatory play requirements for players who failed to meet mandatory play, and/or disqualification of the team or coaches from further tournament participation) may be imposed if, in the opinion of the Tournament Committee:

 

1. a manager or coach takes any action that results in making a travesty of the game, causing players to intentionally perform poorly for the purpose of extending or shortening a game, or;

 

2. a team fails to meet the requirements of this rule more than once during the International Tournament, which begins with District play and ends at the World Series level (State level for 8- to 10- and 9- to 11-Year-Old Divisions), or;

 

3. a manager willfully and knowingly disregards the requirements of this rule. A manager or coach suspended for any reason is not permitted to be at the game site and must not take any part in the game(s), nor have any communications whatsoever with any persons at the game site. This includes pregame and postgame activities. Violation may result, by action of the Tournament Committee, in further suspension; forfeiture of a game; and/or disqualification of the team, managers, or coaches from further tournament participation.

 

e) For the purpose of this rule, “six (6) consecutive defensive outs” is defined as: A player enters the field in one of the nine defensive positions when his/her team is on defense and occupies such position while six consecutive outs are made; “bat at least one (1) time” is defined as: A player enters the batter’s box with no count and completes that time at bat by being retired or by reaching base safely.


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#4 richives

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Posted 12 April 2018 - 03:19 PM

Do they get to call pitches and position assignments too?  Maybe tell me to have a runner steal.  How about deciding defensive strategy? 

 

Has this really happened so often that such a draconian step is needed?   Remember in the LLWS a few years back when a manager gambled on having an opportunity come up late in the game and won the bet? 

 

Then, after saying the manager has to do something, they cop out and say the manager is solely responsible. Sorry Charlie - can't have it both ways.



#5 Plesh

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Posted 12 April 2018 - 04:23 PM

Do they get to call pitches and position assignments too?  Maybe tell me to have a runner steal.  How about deciding defensive strategy? 

 

Has this really happened so often that such a draconian step is needed?   Remember in the LLWS a few years back when a manager gambled on having an opportunity come up late in the game and won the bet? 

 

Then, after saying the manager has to do something, they cop out and say the manager is solely responsible. Sorry Charlie - can't have it both ways.

 

All lineup and defensive positioning will now come directly from Steve Keener's office. Manager's are no longer allowed in dugouts or anywhere within 50 miles of the field of play.



#6 Jamief

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Posted 12 April 2018 - 07:53 PM

I didn’t like it when it was proposed and I’m almost 100% positive it DIDN’T pass at congress. Yet here we are....

So it’s only an ejection if the manager doesn’t do it when they say so? Or when it’s clear that MPR will be missed?

Example: HOME TEAM, 13 players. Batting in bottom of 5th down by 3 runs. Top of the order (best players on the team) first 2 batters get hits and 1 run scores. Runner on 2nd, no outs. The third batter up in the inning is a stud.

By letter of the rule if the manager had been told get your players in he MUST sub in his last player for 1 of the first 3 batters. There is no possible way they can end the inning with this AB but by rule the sub MUST come in. Manager doesn’t instead the Stud hits and gets a HR. Now the manager trots our and puts his last sub in to hit for his 4 batter.

Umpire ejects the manger and DQs him from the rest of the tourney.

Doesn’t seem right does it.


Unless someone can show me how I’m wrong.

#7 Lou Barbieri

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Posted 12 April 2018 - 09:37 PM

The manager only gets ejected if a player does not meet MPR.
If all players meet MPR (no matter when) then there is no ejection.

#8 Jamief

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Posted 12 April 2018 - 09:51 PM

That’s not how i read it

A manager’s failure/refusal to insert players into the line-up as outlined below shall result in immediate ejection of the manager and removal for the remainder of the International Tournament.

Doesn’t say an actual MPR violation has to occur. By not following the mandate you are ejected.

#9 Jamief

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Posted 12 April 2018 - 09:53 PM

I also sent an email to LL asking the question via the link provided in the email.

This is a BAD rule. Knee jerk to the situation last year.

#10 Lou Barbieri

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Posted 12 April 2018 - 10:09 PM

I was told by Williamsport that there must be an MPR violation.
I was told this will be addressed in a Tournament FAQ.
I guess we'll have to wait and see !!!

#11 Jamief

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Posted 12 April 2018 - 11:29 PM

If that’s truly the intent then the mandate isn’t necessary and the mid-game ejection need not be included.

#12 rsnyder6

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Posted 13 April 2018 - 02:26 AM

"Example: HOME TEAM, 13 players. Batting in bottom of 5th down by 3 runs. Top of the order (best players on the team) first 2 batters get hits and 1 run scores. Runner on 2nd, no outs. The third batter up in the inning is a stud.

"By letter of the rule if the manager had been told get your players in he MUST sub in his last player for 1 of the first 3 batters. There is no possible way they can end the inning with this AB but by rule the sub MUST come in. Manager doesn’t instead the Stud hits and gets a HR. Now the manager trots out and puts his last sub in to hit for his 4 batter."

The just need to change it so that you don't have to insert them all before the first at bat. It should apply on to situations where there is a possibility that mandatory play would not take place.

In this example, the #3 (stud) can bat, but if he gets on with no RBI, or makes an out, the sub would have to come in. If he drives in a run and is safe or two runs, you don't have to sub yet.

Anytime you don't have to sub to guarantee MPR, you don't have to. That seem fairer.

#13 Lou Barbieri

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Posted 13 April 2018 - 02:52 AM

No one ever accused LL of writing good rules !!! B)

My favorite, the Regular Season MPR Rule.
It states it applies to every player "present" at the start of the game.
So, one could summize that it doesn't apply to players "not present" at the start of the game, BUT, LL says it does apply to "late arriving players" if the manager puts them into the game.
Where does the Rule say that?

#14 Robin Barradio

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Posted 13 April 2018 - 04:18 AM

And they wonder why LL keeps losing kids. The level of play has really tapered off in the last few years or so in my area.

Another poorly written and not very well thought out rule. They should just get rid of MPR for All Stars. I just don't understand LL's line of thinking. They say they want participation, but if you carry 13 players MPR is 1 at bat. Is that their idea of participation? I just can't believe kids not meeting MPR is such a problem that LL has to use a nuclear option.

As an umpire, I don't really give a crap if MPR is not met. Not my problem.
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#15 richives

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Posted 13 April 2018 - 03:11 PM

And they wonder why LL keeps losing kids. The level of play has really tapered off in the last few years or so in my area.

Another poorly written and not very well thought out rule. They should just get rid of MPR for All Stars. I just don't understand LL's line of thinking. They say they want participation, but if you carry 13 players MPR is 1 at bat. Is that their idea of participation? I just can't believe kids not meeting MPR is such a problem that LL has to use a nuclear option.

As an umpire, I don't really give a crap if MPR is not met. Not my problem.



They're the all-stars, not the some-stars.

They earned the spot on the team.
Play them.

#16 Robin Barradio

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Posted 13 April 2018 - 10:38 PM

They're the all-stars, not the some-stars.

They earned the spot on the team.
Play them.

Not sure what you mean by this statement, but All Stars have bench players, too.

 

I'll offer a couple of observations:

 

1. The 13 player and 1AB rule is an absolute joke. Most of the teams in my area (So Cal and WR) that do take 13 players, usually end up putting the 1 or 2 bubble kids  (bench players) on the team in order to give their studs more playing time. It's a calculated risk that many managers are willing to take, yet those players aren't really All Star caliber, but rather those that can play pretty well and won't hurt you.

All this rule does is give some not really All Star players a spot on the team to take advantage of a playing rule. It is anything but a participation rule. Can't for the life of me figure out why LL even came up with this ridiculous rule.

 

2. If you got rid of MPR in All Stars, it would revert back to when making the All Star team meant something. That the best players made the team, and you still had to earn playing time. It wasn't meant to be a participation thing, you either earned your spot, or you didn't. The games would be better, faster, and it would bring back those kids, parents, and coaches that have become disillusioned with the bureaucracy that LL has created. 

All Stars isn't about playing time, that's for regular season. All Stars is about working hard, earning your spot, and winning! Sorry if it hurts little Billy's feelings, but that's the way it is, and that's the way it should be!

 

The vast majority of people watching the LL WS could give a crap less about MPR. They want to see good competition and good games. Everyone knows the kid getting 1AB isn't really an All Star and is just being exploited by LL in the name of "participation." Making the All Star team and working hard, even if you don't play, will teach you more about life lessons than getting your one token at bat. It's too bad that we insist on not hurting anyone's feelings, instead of teaching our kids that if you want something, you've got to work harder that the next guy and sometimes life just ain't fair!



#17 richives

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Posted 14 April 2018 - 04:56 AM

Not sure what you mean by this statement, but All Stars have bench players, too.


Yes, but ones that get to play. They're 11-12.
Understand that.

I've managed/coached 15 all-star teams (5 International Tournament and 10 "B" teams for local LL tournaments).
I'm not coming from a position of weakness or lack of knowledge.

#18 Robin Barradio

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Posted 14 April 2018 - 08:44 PM

Yes, but ones that get to play. They're 11-12.
Understand that.

 

They play because the rule says they have to, not necessarily because they are good enough to be All Stars. So are kids ages 8, 9, 10, 13, 14, 15, and 16. So what?

Whats your point?

 

Regular season is about participation. At my league we have enhances the MPR for regular season, as do many in our district and area. Some even mandate that kids must play a certain amount of time in the infield. When I managed teams for 13 years, all my kids played about the same amount of innings and positions. As league President for 5 years, I would implore all managers to play their kids and not just follow MPR. Our BOD did a good job of promoting giving all players fair amounts of playing time and encouraging managers to let kids play different positions and bat in different spots in the lineup.

 

All Stars is different, it's about winning, period! The 13 kids and 1AB is a joke and it puts non All Star caliber kids on teams.You can't be serious to call 1AB playing your kids.

 

In my opinion, LL puts too many restrictions and regulations on teams and managers for All Stars, resulting in kids and coaches going elsewhere. The talent level is down, and LL has seen a steady decline in enrollment for over 12 years now. Get rid of MPR for All Stars. It will result in better competition, and better games. It's just my opinion, and you can have a different one. But at least try to convince me your way is better with more than just cryptic responses.



#19 Robin Barradio

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Posted 14 April 2018 - 08:57 PM


I've managed/coached 15 all-star teams (5 International Tournament and 10 "B" teams for local LL tournaments).
I'm not coming from a position of weakness or lack of knowledge.

Again, what is your point or argument?

I have many years of experience as a manager, coach, President, BOD member, in addition to spending 16 years and counting as an umpire. I've umpired hundreds of LL games (all levels) at the local, district, section, sub-division, division, and regional level. I've also worked a number of years as a volunteer at WR.
I also umpire at the travel-ball, HS, and College summer ball levels. I've seen many All Star teams, worked many All Star games. The fact if the matter is that the caliber of All Stars in LL has diminished greatly.
Getting rid of MPR in All Stars (and other cumbersome regulations) would help re-attract quality players and coaches, and bolster the competitiveness. IMHO.

What would be some of your ideas to increase enrollment and competitiveness in LL?

#20 amutz

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Posted 17 April 2018 - 04:05 PM

Enrollment:

 

I've seen regular season enrollment drop locally for a couple of different reasons.    

1) Fewer kids growing up with baseball-fan parents able (or willing) to coach and teach them.  

2) Fewer kids in our school district

3) More alternatives in sports which are faster moving or shorter games like lacrosse, soccer, basketball, Fortnite (sadly)

 

Allstars has lost some players here to travel ball too.

 

Our league is trying to get more young players engaged with free tball days, wiffle ball days, complimentary skills clinics, and a lot more marketing outreach.    The more players we can get into tball, the better odds of a strong cadre of 11-12s.

 

One suggestion purely on All-star quality is to stop discouraging leagues from combining to form good teams.  Small leagues should be able to group together in a simple transparent process to form a competitive team.  





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