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catcher plays three and a half innings can he pitch


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#1 Guest_mike_*

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Posted 22 March 2014 - 07:04 PM

Rules say four or more innings. What about 3 1/2 innings not complete 4?

#2 Mike_Hirschman

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Posted 22 March 2014 - 07:23 PM

When he catches a pitch in an innning, that's an inning. Defensive innings only. So... if he starts the game as the catcher, continues there the first three innings, the first pitch he catches in the fourth disqualifies him from pitching. 

 

If he catches the first, goes to shortstop in the second, catches the third and fourth... the first pitch he catches in the fifth or sixth makes him ineligible. 

 

If he catches the first, starts the second inning at short but then has to move back to catcher in the middle of the inning and then catches the third... the first pitch he catches in the fourth, fifth or sixth makes him ineligible. 



#3 gdavis

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Posted 22 March 2014 - 08:48 PM

Mike has it right.....



#4 Lou Barbieri

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Posted 22 March 2014 - 09:50 PM

As unlikely as it is to occur, a catcher could catch one pitch in four different innings in a game and that would make him ineligible to pitch for the remainder of that day.
On the other hand, if the team played a double header a player could catch 3 full innings in game one and another 3 full innings in game two and could still pitch!

#5 Guest_mike_*

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Posted 22 March 2014 - 11:43 PM

Ok. Let's say a inter league game was won in this fashion and afterward it was protested due to the catcher catching more than 3 innings like we've discussed and pitching as an un eligible pitcher. How would this be fixed?

#6 Lou Barbieri

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 01:35 AM

Depends on when it was protested!
For it to be a legal protest it needs to be made prior to the umpires leaving the field.
If it's made after that (a few hours after the game, the next day, ...) sorry, too late.
The team manager has to keep track of this kind of stuff so that it gets protested when it occurs.

If it's protested when the catcher moves to pitcher it's a "fix it".
Don't let the player pitch.
Depending on the division and whether the previous pitcher remained in the game he may or may not be able to go back on the mound to pitch.

If it's protested after the catcher went in and pitched then when it's protested you record it in the scorebook, take the pitcher off the mound and finish the game.
After that it's up to the protest committee.
Even in Inter-League play you should have a Protest Committee, it should be part of you Inter-League Rules.

#7 richives

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 02:13 AM

Rules say four or more innings. What about 3 1/2 innings not complete 4?

 

 

The rule says "in four or more innings" not "for four or more innings".  As soon as he catches in a fourth inning he cannot move to pitcher.



#8 stan.staziak

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 12:28 PM


If it's protested after the catcher went in and pitched then when it's protested you record it in the scorebook, take the pitcher off the mound and finish the game.
After that it's up to the protest committee.
Even in Inter-League play you should have a Protest Committee, it should be part of you Inter-League Rules.

Question on the above?

 

Why remove him after he has thrown a pitch? If its going to protest, then its going to be upheld as ineligible from that point on.. or if its not upheld, then the kid should be able to P as much as he can.. removing him from a protest not upheld would take away from him (and his team) unnecessarily? 



#9 richives

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 03:11 PM

You remove him because you know he's ineligible. You were there the whole game. You know he's ineligible.  The protest committee just decides the remedy. 



#10 Lou Barbieri

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 03:23 PM

Stan: "Why remove him after he has thrown a pitch? If its going to protest, then its going to be upheld as ineligible from that point on.. "
You remove him at the point you know he's ineligible (at the time of the protest) because that's the Rule (4.19(d)).

If the kid pitches one pitch or if the kid pitches two innings can be a big difference to the Protest Committee.

Kid throws one pitch and is removed - probably doesn't affect the game so the protest is upheld but the game results stand.

Kid pitches two scoreless innnings, game most likely resumes from the point the kid started pitching.

It's up to the protest committee to decide what to do.

#11 DCBaseball

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Posted 24 March 2014 - 12:26 PM

Maybe this is for a different committee, and would certainly be different in regular season vs tournament play, but could one or both coaches be subject to discipline if an ineligible pitcher throws a pitch or more? I have heard of situations where a protest was denied and the game result upheld but the coach of the ineligible pitcher was suspended for the next game. The decision made clear that it did not matter whether they knowingly used the ineligible pitcher or not, they should have known. I have not heard of a case where the protesting coach could be disciplined but as the rule book constantly urges that all involved should do their best to avoid protests, if an opposing coaches knowingly allows an ineligible pitcher to take the mound and pitch just so they can protest, could they be disciplined as well?



#12 Lou Barbieri

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Posted 24 March 2014 - 12:52 PM

There is no one size fits all response, basically it's up to the Protest Committee.
Regular Season - up to the League Protest Committee.
Tournament - up to Williamsport.
Game Stands, Game needs to re-start at the point of the Protest, manager suspension(s), whatever, it's all up to the Protest Committee.
It's all decided on a case by case basis and the decision is final.

#13 LL_K

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 06:00 PM

As unlikely as it is to occur, a catcher could catch one pitch in four different innings in a game and that would make him ineligible to catch for the remainder of that day.
On the other hand, if the team played a double header a player could catch 3 full innings in game one and another 3 full innings in game two and could still pitch!

That is not the way that I have seen this interpreted.  Since the rule states that "any player, who has played the position of catcher in four or more innings of a game, is not eligible to pitch on that calendar day", most umpires and administrators I know have eliminated the catcher from eligibility in game 2 if he caught 3 in game one and catches a pitch in Game 2.  I realize it says "game" but would like some verifcation... anyone?



#14 Lou Barbieri

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 11:29 AM

LL_K: most umpires and administrators that you know are incorrect !!!
The rule states: "has played the position of catcher in four or more innings of a game".
If the team is playing a doubleheader and a catcher catches 3 innings in game one and three innings in game two has he caught in 4 or more innings "in a game" - NO.

This rule is the same for Regular Season as it is for Tournament Play.
You want some "verification" - take a look at the Tournament FAQs and you will find this:

10. My baseball team has a double-header scheduled. I have a player who catches and pitches. If he does not pitch in the first game can he catch in three innings in the first game and three more in the second game and then be moved from catcher to pitcher?

A. Yes, the restriction on moving from catcher to pitcher is if the catcher catches in four or more innings in a game, which did not happen here. As such, the player would be eligible to pitch in the second game after catching three innings in both the first and second game.

====================================================================================================================
Maybe you should show the Tournament FAQ to the administrators and umpires so they "get it right" the next time!

#15 Mike_Hirschman

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 02:27 PM

Lou is right... and the reason it is in the FAQ is because we all questioned it when it came out. It created a lot of confusion and still does for those that haven't read the FAQ document. 



#16 Lou Barbieri

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 02:58 PM

The part of this that never has been (to my know,ledge) "officially answered" is when a game is suspended and resumed at a later date.

Example: a game is suspended in the bottom of the 3rd and is resumed two weeks later when the same two teams are scheduled to play against each other.
Jimmy caught in all 3 innings in the game before it was suspended.
Now, in the resumed game, he catches in the 4th inning.
Can he go in to pitch in the resumed game OR can he pitch in the regularly scheduled game?

Technically, he has caught "in 4 innings in that game" even though he only caught in 1 inning on that day.
So, is it legal for him to pitch that day?

What I would like to see is something "official" from LL that says pitcher to catcher and catcher to pitcher limitations "start over" in a resumed game.
Of course, I'm not holding my breath waiting for it !!! ;o)

#17 Mike_Hirschman

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 05:27 PM

My understanding is that they carry over, Lou. I think we checked on that for the regional once. 



#18 Lou Barbieri

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 05:43 PM

I also believe LL says they carry over and we follow it as such.
That said, that position is, in my opinion, idiotic.

Pitcher to catcher and catcher to pitcher limits are for "player safety".
How does catching in 3 innings today and then catching 1 inning "in the same game" a week from now matter a week fom now, safety wise?
Once again, throw out common sense rather than revise a rule.

I'll give you another crazy scenario for a suspended/resumed game:
Team has a game on Monday, Able and Baker (twins) are not there because they are not yet back from attending a family funeral.
Team still has 10 players so no problem.
Game get's suspended (rain) at the end of 5 with the score tied 3-3.
Game is resumed on Saturday.
On Saturday Able and Baker are there but Daniel and Frank don't show up.
Team is now down to 8 of the players from the first part of the game.
So, you need to put in Able or Baker to field 9 players.
You put in either Able or Baker or maybe even both of them.
The other team scores a run and the game ends at the end of 6 with a score of 4-3.
Wait a minute, Able and/or Baker were put in the game by the manager but did NOT meet MPR!
The game was not "shortened for any reason" so the Manager Penalty can not be Waived by the BOD.
Because of the MPR Violation the manager could end up getting suspended, is that crazy or what!

The MPR Regulation says it applies to all rostered players "present at the start of the game".
So, how can LL say that it applies to rostered players who were "NOT present at the start of the game"?
For players who arrive late or who were not at the first part of a resumed game, let the manager decide if/when to put them in the game.
So what if they only get an at-bat or one inning in the field, it's better than the manager not playing the kid at all?

#19 stan.staziak

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 07:44 PM

In the above, then wouldn't or shouldn't a Manager say I can't play (not enough kids) for the resumption game and reschedule for next time or a day when Daniel and Frank are available and at least 7 of the others?



#20 Lou Barbieri

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 07:52 PM

Stan, maybe, but now you are asking all the players on both teams to come back again on another day/time just because of a dumb rule.
Who knows, if the other manager complained that the manager had 9 or more eligible players there refusing to play might get the game forfeited !!!



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