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NE manager willingly was to forego MPR?


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#1 Dave Poe

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 07:47 PM

At work. Saw on FB.

"First for me. Saw a manager in New England Regional game deliberately violate mandatory play.
Expect changes in the Tournament MPR next year.
I would almost be okay about it, but he was called over and told that he had to get the player in.
In this case, he should be banned from LL.
If his team lost, so no suspension.
If he wins, only has to sit out game tomorrow and first game of WS. But, it gets him to Williamsport."

Anyone have more info?

#2 Guest_Michael D._*

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Posted 11 August 2017 - 11:53 PM

Can't stress enough that MPR for rosters of 13/14 need to include 1 defensive inning as well as the 1 AB

If done willing, the manager needs to be removed and if I am on the board of his league we do it tonight

#3 Lou Barbieri

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Posted 12 August 2017 - 01:05 AM

Maine only had 11 players, New Hampshire had 13.
Maine won the game 7-6.

If they won, I hope WP does suspend the manager for the rest of the Tournament (which could be only 1 more game if they lose in the NE finals).

I would also hope the League BOD takes some action.

#4 Dave Poe

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Posted 12 August 2017 - 12:25 PM

I watched the replay. After the first 2 batters got out, they called the manager over to the head table when he was reminded that the player needed an at-bat. He simply shook his head and walked away.

The next 3 batters got ion base including 1 run to close the score to 7-6. The last kid fouled out. Still never got the player the at bat.

My guess is that the manager thought the best chance to get tie the game was run the lineup. If they win it on a walk off, he knew he'd be suspended but the team would play on. If they tied it, he still had another inning to get the player in. If they lost (which they did), he didn't care as he will never probably coach LL again.

I imagine tbere were quite a few phone calls and emails circulating around that league last night....

#5 richives

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Posted 12 August 2017 - 02:50 PM

Can't stress enough that MPR for rosters of 13/14 need to include 1 defensive inning as well as the 1 AB

 

 

Incorrect - only needs an AB.



#6 richives

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Posted 12 August 2017 - 02:52 PM

I watched the replay. After the first 2 batters got out, they called the manager over to the head table when he was reminded that the player needed an at-bat. He simply shook his head and walked away.

The next 3 batters got ion base including 1 run to close the score to 7-6. The last kid fouled out. Still never got the player the at bat.

My guess is that the manager thought the best chance to get tie the game was run the lineup. If they win it on a walk off, he knew he'd be suspended but the team would play on. If they tied it, he still had another inning to get the player in. If they lost (which they did), he didn't care as he will never probably coach LL again.

I imagine tbere were quite a few phone calls and emails circulating around that league last night....

 

 

Manager at the LLWS took the same chance a few years back and it paid off. Tied the game and then got the kid's MPR .



#7 Jamief

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Posted 12 August 2017 - 03:40 PM

Read some more on FB that the kid was supposed to bat in the 4th and refused to go to the plate.

Seems like a convenient excuse. At that point manager should've let scorer know that he was down a player.

#8 Lou Barbieri

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Posted 12 August 2017 - 05:27 PM

Rich, I think Michael D. is saying MPR for 13-14 players needs to be changed to 1 AB and 3 Defensive Outs rather than just 1 AB.

=======
Maine only has 11 players, I wonder how many major teams they have in their league.

#9 Guest_Michael D._*

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Posted 13 August 2017 - 04:18 AM

Rich, I think Michael D. is saying MPR for 13-14 players needs to be changed to 1 AB and 3 Defensive Outs rather than just 1 AB.

=======
Maine only has 11 players, I wonder how many major teams they have in their league.

 

Correct. Thanks for clarifying. It is ridiculous that a player chosen as an all star is only given one AB a game as MPR. At least give the player one inning in the field. If they are good enough to make all stars they should be good enough to play an inning on the field.

 

It is great that a more players get to be an all star but lets be honest, leagues carry 13-14 players because of the minimum MPR. Sad.



#10 Dave Poe

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Posted 13 August 2017 - 12:41 PM

"leagues carry 13-14 players because of the minimum MPR"

Exactly. If they go back to 3 outs plus an atbat, now the rosters go back to 10 or 11 in size. Sure there's a 12 minimum rule but plenty of DAs out there, since it's their responsibility to approve the affidavits, will grant that waiver for the smaller roster.

The only way to avoid this situation is to go back to the ways of punishing the team. If you poll LL AS managers, I'm guessing 30-40% would make the same move if it came down to it. It will be viewed by many as "taking one for the team".

#11 Lou Barbieri

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Posted 13 August 2017 - 01:25 PM

So, who's taking one for the team, the manager that gets suspended for a game or the player that doesn't get to play? B)


Maybe LL needs to add the Regular Season MPR Player Penalty.
The player needs to start the next game and cannot be removed until getting the combined MPR for the two games.
So, with 13 and the 1 at-bat MPR that means the player would have to start the next game and could not be removed until he/she bats twice (which also means the player gets to play defense for a few innings).
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#12 Mike_Hirschman

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Posted 13 August 2017 - 03:07 PM

The tournament committee can always take further action against a manager for purposefully violating the rules. They have shown that they aren't in a good mood these days. You might not ever hear about it, but there is a chance he could be given a long-term penalty. Would be Little League's version of the NCAA show-cause penalty. Could be that he can't be on any tournament affidavit in 2018. 

 

But here is the problem... again, we are making a huge issue of it because of the stage that it was on. Sadly. these are happening at all levels. We decided in 2007 to stop penalizing the kids for adult mistakes. Ten years later, the penalty still doesn't have enough teeth in it to keep adults from doing it. So, maybe it is time for a show-cause equivalent. If deemed intentional by the committee for the purposes of trying to win a game, make it that they won't coach a tournament game again until June 2019. 

 

That might be the best way to make it go away. 



#13 Lou Barbieri

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Posted 13 August 2017 - 04:13 PM

Problem is, it can easily be the manager's last year in LL.


If deemed "intentional" (manager is told of the player not meeting MPR and does not put the kid in the game) why not just boot the manager out of the Tournament!
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#14 Robin Barradio

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Posted 13 August 2017 - 05:47 PM

The tournament committee can always take further action against a manager for purposefully violating the rules. They have shown that they aren't in a good mood these days. You might not ever hear about it, but there is a chance he could be given a long-term penalty. Would be Little League's version of the NCAA show-cause penalty. Could be that he can't be on any tournament affidavit in 2018.

But here is the problem... again, we are making a huge issue of it because of the stage that it was on. Sadly. these are happening at all levels. We decided in 2007 to stop penalizing the kids for adult mistakes. Ten years later, the penalty still doesn't have enough teeth in it to keep adults from doing it. So, maybe it is time for a show-cause equivalent. If deemed intentional by the committee for the purposes of trying to win a game, make it that they won't coach a tournament game again until June 2019.

That might be the best way to make it go away.

The best way to get rid of MPR and the roster size fiasco is to get rid of MPR and minimum roster size altogether for All Stars.
The 1 AB is a complete slap in the face to anyone who made the all star team. Can't stand that rule at all.
Frankly, it's easier to put that extra kid on the team than deal with the increased MPR requirements.
LL hides under the guise of "increased participation", but the 1 AB is anything but!
I have no issue with Minimum Play during the regular season. As a former manager for many years, I always gave my kids more than the MPR. Throughout the course of the season, all my kids got about the same amount of playing time, and got to play just about every position, too.
But this is All Stars, for goodness sake.
Like it or not, it is win or go home. That's the way it is.
Guess what, you want to get to WP, you have to win, Period. I'm not saying to cheat or break the rules, but it is certainly not regular season.
Short of little Billy's parents, nobody cares how many kids are on an All Star team, or who gets to play. Nobody watching the televised games cares if there is 9 or 14 on the roster, or how many innings a player gets to play.
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#15 Lou Barbieri

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Posted 13 August 2017 - 09:50 PM

Real Baseball doesn't have MPR !!! (sorry couldn't resist)

"Back-in-the-Day" there was no MPR in The Tournament.
Making the team was an "honor" - that was enough.

That went bye-bye years ago (unfortunately).

#16 Mike_Hirschman

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Posted 14 August 2017 - 01:54 PM

I've never been a fan of MPR and have been on record as saying it numerous times. As a kid, I played on a tournament team and sat the bench. I was only picked because they needed a second catcher. That was my role and I accepted it. 

 

Here's my argument... each roster winds up eliminating 1-3 kids because they don't want to deal with MPR for 14, 13, 12 kids. So how many of those kids worldwide are missing out on a chance to play in the international tournament (the largest single sporting event in the world)?  There was a time when it was a PRIVILEGE to play in the tournament and it was viewed that way. For many reasons, MPR being one of them, that is no longer the case. 

 

But I will step off my soapbox because MPR is never going away.



#17 richives

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Posted 14 August 2017 - 04:29 PM

Heard more than once:

"They're the all-stars, not the some-stars."

They're 11-12.
The fate of the world (or even their own lives) doesn't rest on what happened when they were 11-12.
Get over yourselves and get them into the game.
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#18 rsnyder6

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Posted 14 August 2017 - 04:49 PM

"Maybe LL needs to add the Regular Season MPR Player Penalty."

‚ÄčI like this idea. The forfeit penalty is too harsh, and the suspension seems not a deterrent.

Also, while I'd like to see all the players play more, but it seems pretty clear that teams are taking 13 only because it is only a one at bat requirement.
I'm afraid adding additional playing requirements will just lead to more 11 player teams.
I just have to go with more players, even if they don't play a lot except in blow-outs.

But maybe there are other solutions.
I saw someone suggest CBO the first time through the order.
Not saying that is the answer, but maybe there are other solutions. (But then the "REAL BASEBALL!" folks would be in arms.)

#19 Dave Poe

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Posted 14 August 2017 - 04:59 PM

Omg - how hard is it?
It's one freakin at-bat!!!

Go ahead - get rid of MPR and when participation declines because Johnny chooses to go to soccer camp next year instead of riding a pine with no action for two weeks, we'll see.
Oh but maybe Johnny gets it and accepts his role of inbetween inning outfield warmer and just wants to be part of the team BUT mom/dad thinks it's a waste of time so they don't let him play, we'll see how this affects the apple cart.

It's one at bat! 2nd inning, no one on, get the kid his at bat. I don't see how LL takes the blame here.
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#20 rsnyder6

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Posted 14 August 2017 - 05:09 PM

Omg - how hard is it? It's one freakin at-bat!!!

 

    Yup. 

    From what I've seen there is a lot of focus on that particular plate appearance. How he had to have the best player he could bat. Every game has at least 18 plate appearances. Don't put yourself in that spot.





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