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#21 Jeremy

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Posted 07 August 2017 - 08:37 PM

*athletic supporter

I know that one by number without looking... 1.17

#22 richives

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Posted 07 August 2017 - 09:54 PM

A player not wearing a jock strap is cheating, it gives the team an advantage - say what?

That's a prety big reach in my opinion.


In Jeremy's mind a rules violation is cheating.
No jock is thus cheating. ;)

#23 richives

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Posted 07 August 2017 - 09:56 PM

Back in 89 I did a hold them in the air test and the next year the world went PC so in 1990 I did the everyone tap their own cup check....Year after that I got into girls and took about a 15 year break from LL umping. Now I'm scared to even say the word cup.

If I somehow found out a coach knowingly let a player on the field without a jock strap that is cheating, no different than using an ineligible pitcher. Both rules are safty rules. Not following both can gain a team an advantage.

Leaving the bag early on a tag up, that's different. It's hard to judge intent on that one, If you are leaving early on purpose some could argue it's cheating and others argue it's a caculated risk...No matter the semantics there's a clearly defined penalty for leaving early.

 

 

Uh - Jeremy - a jock and a cup are not the same thing.



#24 Lou Barbieri

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Posted 07 August 2017 - 10:14 PM

He may think not wearing a jock is cheating but how does it "gain an advantage"?
I guess players play better when they don't wear jocks!!!

If they don't wear a LL patch is that cheating/does that make them play better or worse?

#25 Jeremy

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Posted 07 August 2017 - 11:24 PM

Uh - Jeremy - a jock and a cup are not the same thing.


I don't know what the rule was in 89 but we did cup checks in our local LL....I know the difference as you can see in post #21 I corrected my misuse.

#26 Jeremy

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Posted 07 August 2017 - 11:33 PM

He may think not wearing a jock is cheating but how does it "gain an advantage"?
I guess players play better when they don't wear jocks!!!
If they don't wear a LL patch is that cheating/does that make them play better or worse?

Same advantage as using in ineligible pitcher.

If I knowingly as a manager let a kid take the field that doesn't meet all the safty requirements, that's cheating....Depending on the players talent level it gives my more options both defensively and offensively.

Patch is different in two main ways I can think of...it's not a safty rule and you can't hide from the ump the fact you don't have a patch on.

Some umps ask before a game about cups for catchers and supporters for everyone else... they rely on the honor system...is it cheating if you lie and say yes?...even if they don't ask Little League relays on the honor system, when you take the field you're saying yes.

A Dolphins fan and a Patriots fan can't agree on what cheating is....lol

#27 Lou Barbieri

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Posted 08 August 2017 - 12:01 AM

So, you've got 12 male players.
Prior to the game 4 of them tell you they forgot to wear their jocks.
You're not going to play the game because you don't have 9 players wearing all their safety equipment?

===========
As an ump, I don't check/ask about "jocks" but I do have each catcher "knock" his cup. I'm not letting a male player catch without a cup.

#28 Jeremy

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Posted 08 August 2017 - 12:38 AM

I'm a softball coach, I'm just arguing to argue, I like to know where your lines are.

We're a little bit more PC out here on the West Coast, even the tap check is frowned on for cups.

#29 Robin Barradio

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Posted 08 August 2017 - 03:51 AM

I'm a softball coach, I'm just arguing to argue, I like to know where your lines are.

We're a little bit more PC out here on the West Coast, even the tap check is frowned on for cups.

I'll tell you where my lines are. I'm on the side of common sense and fair play. I don't check for cups, that's the manager's responsibility, not mine. I ask at the plate meeting if his players are properly equipped and if all the equipment is legal. That's it, and now the responsibility is on the manager, as it should be. Anything else is being an OOO.

 

And stop using a "safety issue" as a crutch for enforcing every little thing you don't like. Umpires that cry a "safety issue" at every little thing are weak, don't know the rules, or how to apply them, and usually make crap up to suit their own agenda. Often times, game management is a far more important tool in a game than adjudicating. Most LL umpires need to learn proper game management, as well as, professionalism on the field in dealing with coaches and players. It's the Smittys and the OOO ones that give LL umpires a bad name.


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#30 Lou Barbieri

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Posted 08 August 2017 - 01:20 PM

So you ask the managers if their players are properly equipped and their equipment is legal - anyone ever say No?

Since the managers said their equipment is legal I guess you don't do any equipment checks or worry about any illegal bats.

I was at a game where a male catcher who was not wearing a cup ended up in the hospital - you may think it's OOO but I'm doing a cup check.
It takes about 2 seconds and can prevent a serious injury.

#31 Mike_Hirschman

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Posted 08 August 2017 - 04:34 PM

I've gotten beaten up for my position on this.... Atlee won the regional that I helped host. One of the nicest groups I have worked with in 22 years or running regionals. Have not spoken to the manager other than to text him on Sunday morning to say "we're thinking of you guys". They are obviously having a tough time of it. 

 

I don't agree with the nuclear option (booting them completely) because the coach had already yanked the post and made his team go to the hotel and apologize. Much has been said in the whisper of the winds about Kirkland's behavior towards others throughout the week. Time will tell what comes of that. 

 

When I heard about it, my first reaction was "short of the middle finger or mooning the camera..." Yeah, well, that's what it was. And I don't have a true answer other than you boot the kid that posted it and maybe suspend the manager because it is his players. That's the best I've got. 

 

I hesitate still with this... does this turn every parking lot or handshake line incident into ejections, suspensions, phone calls, etc.? Because they happen. Especially with teenagers. I can quote you a good one that happened to me this year. And the line has just been drawn in the sand... so instead of that manager who benched the kid for the next game for what he said to my players, am I supposed to pursue action with the TD and the tournament committeee?

 

Because I think that's the precedent we just set.


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#32 Robin Barradio

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Posted 08 August 2017 - 04:35 PM

So you ask the managers if their players are properly equipped and their equipment is legal - anyone ever say No?

Since the managers said their equipment is legal I guess you don't do any equipment checks or worry about any illegal bats.

I was at a game where a male catcher who was not wearing a cup ended up in the hospital - you may think it's OOO but I'm doing a cup check.
It takes about 2 seconds and can prevent a serious injury.

If they say no to either question, we're not playing. No one has ever said no. But the questions put the responsibility, where it should be, on the manager.

 

To point #2, I never said I don't do equipment checks. That is an unfounded and improper inference.

I'll tell you exactly what I do regarding equipment checks. I'll arrive to the field early and at some point I'll tell the manager to get all bats, helmets, and catchers gear, and set it out in front of the dugout. Myself and/or partner(s) will then check the gear. What I don't do is go into the dugout and start opening bags looking for other equipment. (Yes, this is done regularly with some umpires). I won't look at bat bags hanging in the dugout and ask if there are any other bats. I won't ask for any other equipment, what they set out is what I check. If there is an issue, I'll take care of it then. If there is an issue during the game, then I have rules to deal with that.

 

Cups are not my issue. What if the catcher says he's uncomfortable knocking on his private area in front of you? What are you going to do then? It's the managers responsibility. LL wants to deflect any potential liability issues onto others wherever possible, and that's a fact! Since I can't be sure 100% that a kid is wearing a cup, I don't want the liability put on me. Just because he knocks doesn't mean he hasn't fooled me in some way.

 

Also, what if he takes it out after the first inning? Do you check every inning? By your own logic, you should be. By asking, you've just opened yourself up to being the cup police, and if something happens, you could be liable.

 

Funny thing, in High School and many other organizations, we don't do any equipment checks. We just ask the managers at the plate meetings if their kids are properly safety equipped, and that's where it ends. Bunnies don't die, and all the children of the world don't perish in a fiery volcano at the gates of purgatory. All the organizations that don't do equipment checks seem to be able to afford liability insurance, and don't seem to have any higher incidents of injury than LL. If they did, their insurance rates would be astronomical. 



#33 Mike_Hirschman

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Posted 08 August 2017 - 04:38 PM

And for the record... I think I was more pissed off to see every Delaware Dist 3 kid wearing a travel ball logo on batting helmet in the championship game.

 

Every... single.... kid. 


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#34 Robin Barradio

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Posted 08 August 2017 - 04:55 PM

And for the record... I think I was more pissed off to see every Delaware Dist 3 kid wearing a travel ball logo on batting helmet in the championship game.

 

Every... single.... kid. 

Pissed because it was a travel ball team in the Regional, or pissed because the stickers were still on the helmets and should have been removed if not factory applied or without an approval letter?



#35 Mike_Hirschman

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Posted 08 August 2017 - 05:18 PM

Pissed because it was a travel ball team in the Regional, or pissed because the stickers were still on the helmets and should have been removed if not factory applied or without an approval letter?

 

 

All of the above. We shouldn't be representing another organization. And it wasn't a regional. It was the world series title game for senior softball. And it was the host district. 



#36 Robin Barradio

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Posted 09 August 2017 - 04:36 AM

All of the above. We shouldn't be representing another organization. And it wasn't a regional. It was the world series title game for senior softball. And it was the host district. 

Did LL not provide helmets for the players? If they did, then the players must have put on stickers. If they didn't, why weren't they instructed to remove them?

 

This points to a couple examples of the hypocrisy of LL. On one hand, they hammer us that stickers are a no-no, but they can't even police them in their own WS tournament? Ridiculous. On the other hand, what if the team did have a letter from the manufacturer? Wouldn't be illegal, would it?

 

Number two. LL wants to distance themselves from other organizations and paint themselves as a noble all inclusive organization. They want to appear as having nothing to do with travel-ball, but yet in reality, they need travel-ball in order to have these elite teams in their precious televised tournaments. Nearly, if not all, of the teams in the WS are travel teams, period. Nobody would want to see a bunch of run of the mill all star teams from the average local league play in the WS, and LL and ESPN know that. The teams that make it out of regionals are all somehow connected to travel-ball and play year round. That's just the way it is. LL acts like they don't like it, but would never do anything to prevent it. Can't kill the golden goose. In the LL West Regionals in SB, teams from states with strong travel-ball ties are the ones that come out and go to the WS.

 

LL acts all incredulous towards travel-ball and lets all its supporters believe that they are incensed that travel-ball even exists, when in reality, they quietly condone it and continue to pocket ESPN's ever growing pile of money. 



#37 Plesh

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Posted 09 August 2017 - 01:16 PM

While LL rakes in the millions for the 12s baseball, they barely fund the other tournaments. The Junior and Senior kids have to give their jerseys back afterwards, they don't get any gear or freebies like the 12s do. That's why you see everyone wearing their own stuff in those other tournaments.



#38 Robin Barradio

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Posted 09 August 2017 - 02:28 PM

@Plesh. I did not know that. Too bad they don't share the wealth.

 

So I guess they were wearing their regular season helmets. Should have done a better job policing those helmets, but then again, maybe they had approval.



#39 richives

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Posted 09 August 2017 - 02:46 PM

While LL rakes in the millions for the 12s baseball, they barely fund the other tournaments. The Junior and Senior kids have to give their jerseys back afterwards, they don't get any gear or freebies like the 12s do. That's why you see everyone wearing their own stuff in those other tournaments.

 

That's done by the equipment guys. Blame them.



#40 Jamief

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Posted 09 August 2017 - 02:53 PM

Getting approval for helmets doesn't take much. A simple letter from the manufacture. Easily obtained with an email.

We went to the Bristol LLSB regional and yes the teams were clearly 80-90% travel girls. They all had the same bat bags helmets etc.



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