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#1 Jeremy

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Posted 06 August 2017 - 01:08 AM

https://pilotonline....14a8381c2e.html


I have mixed emotions on this but I think I lean towards the punishment being to harsh.

#2 Lou Barbieri

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Posted 06 August 2017 - 01:23 AM

Not much else you can do but punish stupidity !!!

#3 Jeremy

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Posted 06 August 2017 - 02:27 AM

What about advancing Kirkland who had two ejections in the same tournament for cheating?

My daughter has been part of a few teams where half the team are great all around kids and the other half are out of control.

#4 Lou Barbieri

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Posted 06 August 2017 - 11:27 AM

Two ejections for cheating ???

PS: Congrats to the Central Region on Winning the Championship.

#5 Jamief

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Posted 06 August 2017 - 11:49 AM

How come everyone keeps saying. "The manager and a player were ejected for cheating!!"
Or
"the other team started it with their unsportsmanlike conduct!!"

When in reality they were ejected because of the new rule on giving your batter pitches or locations from second base.

I thought the new rule for signaling was silly and the ejections way too harsh when they were announced.

#6 Lou Barbieri

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Posted 06 August 2017 - 01:40 PM

The rule says "may" eject.
I would think giving a warning first would be appropriate but maybe that's just me.

Now, if they did it in two different games and I'm the TD I'm calling the Janitor and asking the manager be suspended for multiple games.
Break the rule once, shame on you, break it twice, shame on me !!!

#7 Robin Barradio

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Posted 06 August 2017 - 08:32 PM

The "pitch location rule" from 2nd base is complete Horse$!^t, and another fine LL example of a solution looking for a problem. No way I'm enforcing that rule. Here's an idea, hide your signals better, or how about this: Don't let ESPN show the little twerp on 2nd base waving his arms or pointing!

 

LL has a habit of teaching their umpires to be Over Officious, and this is one example of many. Get rid of that ridiculous rule, and stop worrying about it. LL is so image conscious that it sometimes clouds their decisions. NOBODY cares about little Billy on 2nd base waving his arms. LL thinks it looks bad on TV and that's all that matters to them. Personally, I think the over exposure on TV is one of the worse things that has happened to LL. What happens at the World Series in not indicative of what goes on at local leagues around the world. If anything, this over exposure to TV and LL being a prostitute to ESPN's money has tainted the very foundation of LL and goes against the grain of LL's original mission.

 

Not condoning at all what the team did, and I agree with removing them. But it appears that LL has done it to themselves again. Apparently the girls were responding to the other team "cheating" over stealing pitch location. Probably wouldn't have happened if the rule was not in place? Maybe?

Reminds me of the softball issue last year or the year before when the coach benched his starters in order to manipulate the seedings. (Or something to that effect). He didn't break any rules, but yet was disciplined by LL because it "looked bad." It wasn't the manager's fault that he took advantage of the seeding situation. It was LL's fault for how they set up the tournament and everyone knew it could become an issue.

 

LL needs to stop having knee jerk reactions to situations that may "harm" their image. They should also hire some reasonable and qualified people to handle their rule changes and interpretations starting at the top. We need a national UIC, and a qualified rules committee!

 

JMHO



#8 Jeremy

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Posted 06 August 2017 - 08:44 PM

The only way I don't call that cheating is if they were ignorant to the rule....Knowingly breaking a playing rule in the hopes of not getting caught is cheating no matter if you agree or disagree with the rule. I'm going to guess a manager that can get his team to that level knows all the LL rule changes.

What if only three girls did this?...Would you disqualify the team or suspend individual players?...I say the individual players, with six girls I would do the same, each individual player and at that point they can no longer field a team and it's a forfeit in the Championship game, you don't replace the team with the third place team.

What manager would you not want coming back to your league next year?...The one that couldn't control his teams victory celebration but did take action when he found out or the one that got tossed during a game for stealing signs?

#9 Jeremy

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Posted 06 August 2017 - 08:55 PM

I hate calling infield flys in Minors. For many that infield fly is the best contact that kid got all year. I've yet to see a team that is savvy enough to to internationally drop the ball to turn two, yet I call it.

I think the stealing sign rule is ridiculous too but it's still a rule....I believe knowing how to secretly communicate with you team is part of the game. More power to the teams that can break your code.

#10 Robin Barradio

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Posted 06 August 2017 - 11:44 PM

The only way I don't call that cheating is if they were ignorant to the rule....Knowingly breaking a playing rule in the hopes of not getting caught is cheating no matter if you agree or disagree with the rule. I'm going to guess a manager that can get his team to that level knows all the LL rule changes.

What if only three girls did this?...Would you disqualify the team or suspend individual players?...I say the individual players, with six girls I would do the same, each individual player and at that point they can no longer field a team and it's a forfeit in the Championship game, you don't replace the team with the third place team.

What manager would you not want coming back to your league next year?...The one that couldn't control his teams victory celebration but did take action when he found out or the one that got tossed during a game for stealing signs?

There's a difference between cheating and gaining an advantage, whether that advantage is deliberate or not. A kid leaving early on a tag up is breaking a rule knowingly, but I would not classify that as cheating. He's knowingly or unknowingly trying to gain an advantage. Many other examples of this type.

Why is it only LL that has this ridiculous rule? The rule was not put in place to prevent one team from gaining an advantage. It was put in place because LL doesn't like how it looks on TV, period! Teams are just going to find more discreet ways of stealing signs. Besides, stealing pitch signs and location is way over rated. Pitcher still has to hit the spot, and batter has to handle the pitch. It doesn't always work as well as people think.

 

I agree with LL removing the team. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. Tough lesson for those girls to learn, but it had to be. You win as a team, lose as a team.

 

Not sure of the significance of your last paragraph. Not sure that either manager would or would not be brought back the following year based on the one incident. I would evaluate each one's season body of work.



#11 Robin Barradio

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Posted 07 August 2017 - 12:00 AM

I hate calling infield flys in Minors. For many that infield fly is the best contact that kid got all year. I've yet to see a team that is savvy enough to to internationally drop the ball to turn two, yet I call it.

I think the stealing sign rule is ridiculous too but it's still a rule....I believe knowing how to secretly communicate with you team is part of the game. More power to the teams that can break your code.

I call infield fly in minors, but we take into account the level of play. You can umpire to the letter of the rules all you want, good luck with that. You'll become a better umpire when you umpire WITH the book, not by the book. You can be an OOO all you want, but you'll have better games when you take some training, and some games outside of LL. There is a whole-nother world umpiring out there. You'll learn a lot more, particularly what LL does well, and what they need to improve on. While you're at it, next time you do a baseball game, make sure all male players are wearing an athletic supporter, after all it is a LL rule!

 

The LL sign stealing rule is poorly written and too subjective to be effectively enforced. Along with the one foot in the box rule, the batting with one foot outside of the box, the chewing of gum or seeds (not a LL rule, but some people seem to think it is), hands to the mouth on the mound, etc. Don't make these your best calls! Know when and how to enforce them.



#12 Plesh

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Posted 07 August 2017 - 04:04 AM

As I said on FB, I agree with the ruling. After seeing the picture, I don't mind them being disqualified. I think it is the correct decision. I think this sets a good precedent as well going forward.

When you put on your uniform, you are representing your league, your town, and in this case, your state and region. Although they are young kids, they have quite the responsibility to act appropriately. Stupid acts have consequences.

#13 Dave Poe

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Posted 07 August 2017 - 01:02 PM

Agreed Plesh.
I'm not a huge fan of expulsion essentially because the innocent get punished because of the actions of a minority few. However, the flaw in my personal feelings is that we the adults refuse to draw a line out of fear of the majority being punished.
In this case, if they punish just the offenders, then team doesn't have enough players to play so that leaves the option of expelling the entire team or doing nothing.
Doing nothing couldn't be an option.
Something had to be done.

#14 Lou Barbieri

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Posted 07 August 2017 - 01:22 PM

Disqualify the offenders.
If the team does not have enough players to play in the Championship game - Forfeit.
No way Kirkland should play in the Championship game.

Sorry, ESPN, but no Championship Game.

Of course, no way LL is going to give up that TV money!

#15 richives

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Posted 07 August 2017 - 03:43 PM

The only way I don't call that cheating is if they were ignorant to the rule....Knowingly breaking a playing rule in the hopes of not getting caught is cheating 
 

 

When's the last time you checked all the boys for jocks?



#16 Lou Barbieri

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Posted 07 August 2017 - 03:55 PM

If you can't be an athlete, be an athletic supporter!!! B)

#17 Jeremy

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Posted 07 August 2017 - 06:59 PM

When's the last time you checked all the boys for jocks?



Back in 89 I did a hold them in the air test and the next year the world went PC so in 1990 I did the everyone tap their own cup check....Year after that I got into girls and took about a 15 year break from LL umping. Now I'm scared to even say the word cup.

If I somehow found out a coach knowingly let a player on the field without a jock strap that is cheating, no different than using an ineligible pitcher. Both rules are safty rules. Not following both can gain a team an advantage.

Leaving the bag early on a tag up, that's different. It's hard to judge intent on that one, If you are leaving early on purpose some could argue it's cheating and others argue it's a caculated risk...No matter the semantics there's a clearly defined penalty for leaving early.

#18 Lou Barbieri

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Posted 07 August 2017 - 08:07 PM

A player not wearing a jock strap is cheating, it gives the team an advantage - say what?

That's a prety big reach in my opinion.

#19 Jeremy

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Posted 07 August 2017 - 08:19 PM

You have 10 players at the field, you are the manager and you hear the best batter on the team say "I forgot my cup"....You now have a choice, play the player or not.

#20 Robin Barradio

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Posted 07 August 2017 - 08:27 PM

Uhhh, cups are only mandatory for male catchers.





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