Jump to content


Photo

Guidance for Combining Leagues


21 replies to this topic

#1 Lou Barbieri

Lou Barbieri

    Advanced Member

  • Moderators
  • 2,863 posts
  • LocationThe Villages, Florida

Posted 29 June 2017 - 09:15 PM

Lots of discussions on other threads about Combining Leagues/Teams for All Stars.

It was suggested that LL provide some guidance on Combining leagues.
Maybe all of us could come up with something we could send to Williamsport.

To combine the leagues must have combined or played an inter-league schedule during the season (same as currently).

Here is my suggestion for "pre-approved" combinations for all Divisions except 10-12 Baseball:
Two or three leagues may combine if the total number of teams is 7 or less but no league may have more than 5 teams.
All other combinations must be approved by the Region (Williamsport?).

For 10-12 Baseball:
Two or three leagues may combine if their total number of teams is 5 or less.
All other combinations must be approved by Williamsport.

=====
Edited to lower the number of teams allowed "automatically" Combine.
Higher number of league/team combinations require Regional/Williamsport approval.

#2 Jeremy

Jeremy

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~

  • Administrators
  • 1,307 posts
  • LocationNorthern California

Posted 29 June 2017 - 10:19 PM

I personally think that's a bit lenient but it would satisfy me....All I want is guidelines in writing.

I would prefer to use eligible players not already on a tournament team before using number of teams.

A league would need less then X amount of players (let's just say 75) to combine.
Let's say a league has 50 of each league age...So that would be 150 10-12, but only 5 10 year olds played majors, so now we have 105 eligible players, 10 league age 12's play the 50/70 tournament, so now down to 95 eligible players, The five league age 10 all go to the 8-10 tournament, so now it's 90 eligible players, 13 league age 11s go to the 9-11 tournament, now down to 77 eligible players....This league wouldn't be able to combine for 10-12.

#3 Lou Barbieri

Lou Barbieri

    Advanced Member

  • Moderators
  • 2,863 posts
  • LocationThe Villages, Florida

Posted 29 June 2017 - 11:40 PM

Way too hard to track/figure out (in my opinion)!!!

Currently on page 2 of the Inter-League Form there is a table of potential two league combinations.
Since LL uses the number of teams that's what I used.

If there is an easier way I'm all for it.

#4 Jeremy

Jeremy

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~

  • Administrators
  • 1,307 posts
  • LocationNorthern California

Posted 30 June 2017 - 12:15 AM

I would like to see a break down of how many major baseball teams each league in the US has.....I know in my District the avg is under four....Is there really a lot of leagues at 10?

I don't feel the objective to combined teams should be to level the playing field with the max size leagues....I believe it should be to make it so leagues can field a team....Baseball should have slightly bigger pool sizes to build from because of pitching limitations.

#5 Lou Barbieri

Lou Barbieri

    Advanced Member

  • Moderators
  • 2,863 posts
  • LocationThe Villages, Florida

Posted 30 June 2017 - 01:17 AM

Many many many years ago when I took over as President there were two leagues in our County (1 on the east side the other on the west).
My league (west side) had 12 major teams, 6 American and 6 National.
The other League (east side) had 10 major teams.

Two years later, both leagues gave up some of our boundaries to form a third league (in the central part of the County).
My league ended up with 9 major teams, the other existing league dropped to 8 and the new league ended up with 6 (23 total teams).

Same 3 leagues last year had 5, 4 and 4 major teams (13 total teams).

The largest league in our District had 6 major teams this year.
A couple of leagues only had 2.

#6 RB56

RB56

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 56 posts

Posted 01 July 2017 - 12:35 PM

We have entertained the notion of combining some of our leagues for District All Stars, but have not pursued the concept yet.

 

For 2017, we had 85 teams for the 9 to 12 year old age group spread across our four leagues.  As mentioned in other threads, each league is broken down between Drafted Divisions (Majors for 11 and 12 year olds, and Supreme for 9 and 10 year olds), and Assigned Divisions (AAA for 11 and 12 year olds, and AA for 9 and 10 year olds).  The ratio of Minors-to-Majors this year was 4.0 to 1 (absurd ratio).

 

League A:  13 Minors and 4 Majors (3.3 to 1)

League B:  26 Minors and 5 Majors (5.2 to 1)

League C:  18 Minors and 5 Majors (3.6 to 1)

League D:  11 Minors and 3 Majors (3.7 to 1)

 

This is just for the 9 to 12 year old age group (a few kids play up a division).  LLI does not seem to have a problem with this structure, as the Charter Committee has issued a waiver the past few seasons for 12 year olds to pitch in the AAA Minors Division.  Given the domination of League B in 2017, would expect the other leagues to follow suit and further limit opportunities in the Majors Divisions next season.

 

The members that understand what Little League is really about, have no desire to combine leagues for All Star play, but there are others who are all about win-win-win.    


  • Jeremy likes this

#7 Lou Barbieri

Lou Barbieri

    Advanced Member

  • Moderators
  • 2,863 posts
  • LocationThe Villages, Florida

Posted 01 July 2017 - 10:46 PM

I've commented on this before.
Your DA, the Region and Williamsport should be ashamed to condone/approve things like this.
It makes it just that much harder for all those leagues out there that bust their butts to "follow LL Rules/Regulations".

I feel sorry for all the 12 year olds in Minors - even if they are allowed to pitch they have no opportunity to play All Stars.
In my opinion, 12 year olds in Minors should be rare (safety risks), your league has them in Minors just to keep the number of your Majors teams small.
I guess LL really doesn't care about the minors-majors ratio anymore. :-(
  • rsnyder6 likes this

#8 Jeremy

Jeremy

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~

  • Administrators
  • 1,307 posts
  • LocationNorthern California

Posted 02 July 2017 - 02:25 AM

The "Assigned Division AAA" gets me and it has nothing to do with tournament play.

I'm guessing you hold tryouts and then draft and the "leftovers" get divided amongst the AAA division?....The only way I would be fine with that structure is if it was a parent request only division, everyone that wanted to play in majors played.

I feel tournament play has an elitist feel/aspect to it...I feel the major/AAA would bring that same elitist feel to regular season....I would hate to be a 12 year old in AAA and in a class at school with a bunch of major players...kind of make you feel inferior for a few months. I know it's life, thick skin and all of that but this is just regular season LL.

#9 RB56

RB56

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 56 posts

Posted 02 July 2017 - 06:03 PM

I've commented on this before.
Your DA, the Region and Williamsport should be ashamed to condone/approve things like this.
It makes it just that much harder for all those leagues out there that bust their butts to "follow LL Rules/Regulations".

I feel sorry for all the 12 year olds in Minors - even if they are allowed to pitch they have no opportunity to play All Stars.
In my opinion, 12 year olds in Minors should be rare (safety risks), your league has them in Minors just to keep the number of your Majors teams small.
I guess LL really doesn't care about the minors-majors ratio anymore. :-(

 

It has been frustrating to watch this unfold the past few years.  Board Members believe this structure is necessary to compete with Travel Baseball, while the DA and Williamsport really don't seem to care.  A former Board Member did raise a number of concerns directly with Williamsport that brought some welcomed changes (most important, use of an Adult Coordinator when kids are umpiring).  Can't guess how many times we have heard, "The DA is okay with this approach," even when published rules and regulations say something different. 

 

There are some 12 year olds that choose to play in the Minors with friends, since teams tend to be assigned by neighborhood.  A couple years ago, there was a 12 year old that pitched in the AAA Minors and threw straight gas.  He played Travel Baseball as an 11 year old, but came to Little League to play with friends (he did not attend Majors Division Tryouts).  Saw one inning when he needed 14 pitches to strikeout the side, and parents told him he was "slacking" for needing so many pitches.  Probably a safety issue for kids that had to face him.

 

In recent years, Peachtree City Little League (Georgia), Rosedale Little League (California), and Tulsa Little League (Oklahoma) were disqualified from the tournament for having an "illegal" draft.  We have less than half our 11 and 12 year olds in the Majors Division, and are nowhere near the recommended 2:1 Minors-to-Majors ratio for 9 to 12 year olds, and what does LLI do?  The Charter Committee grants a waiver permitting 12 year olds to pitch in our Minors Division.  



#10 Jeremy

Jeremy

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~

  • Administrators
  • 1,307 posts
  • LocationNorthern California

Posted 02 July 2017 - 07:39 PM

They let them pitch because they're not facing 8 & 9 year olds.....Its more like a B division for Majors.

Game Coordinators shouldn't be used because the rules say or a DA tells you, they should be used because they serve a purpose that makes your league and games run better....Same with Board Members on Duty.

#11 Lou Barbieri

Lou Barbieri

    Advanced Member

  • Moderators
  • 2,863 posts
  • LocationThe Villages, Florida

Posted 03 July 2017 - 07:36 PM

Problem is, there is no "B Majors" Division!
There is no way LL should allow such high minors to majors ratios (3.3 is bad enough, 5.2 is ludicrous (IMO)).

Twelve year olds should play majors unless they are a safety hazard.
Creating a "B Majors" with a bunch of 12s in it and getting a Waiver for those 12s to pitch is, in my opinion, not in the true spirit of LL.

I'm disappointed that Williamsport condones it.
  • rsnyder6 and Plesh like this

#12 rsnyder6

rsnyder6

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 225 posts

Posted 05 July 2017 - 06:56 AM

Our high minors to majors ratio is .75 to 1. It is usually around 1:1.

Seems you would have to play with things to get it far off from that.

#13 Lou Barbieri

Lou Barbieri

    Advanced Member

  • Moderators
  • 2,863 posts
  • LocationThe Villages, Florida

Posted 05 July 2017 - 01:27 PM

The minors to majors ratio is for all players ages 9-12.
It is recommended to be 2:1 or less.
Basically, you could have 2/3 of the 9-12s in Minors and 1/3 of them in majors (including most/all 12 year olds).

The goal of all players should be to play in majors and leagues should not deprive players from reaching that goal, unless of course, there are safety concerns.

===================
I was the President of a PONY league for a number of years. In PONY all 11s and 12s play in the same Division. Why is it so hard for that to be the case in so many leagues in LL?

#14 RB56

RB56

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 56 posts

Posted 06 July 2017 - 11:24 AM

Problem is, there is no "B Majors" Division!
There is no way LL should allow such high minors to majors ratios (3.3 is bad enough, 5.2 is ludicrous (IMO)).

Twelve year olds should play majors unless they are a safety hazard.
Creating a "B Majors" with a bunch of 12s in it and getting a Waiver for those 12s to pitch is, in my opinion, not in the true spirit of LL.

I'm disappointed that Williamsport condones it.

 

Afraid next year could be even worse from a ratio of Minors-To-Majors, since kids born in the Summer of 2005 were given the option to stay down with existing teams this year (i.e., play with 9 and 10 year olds in Drafted Supreme Division or Assigned AA Minors Division).  These kids are considered 11 year olds for District All Star purposes, as well as having only one more season of Majors Division eligibility left, but were effectively given the option to play as 10 year olds this past season.  These kids will be 12 year olds for 2018, but not sure we will add any Majors Division teams for next season to accommodate this 16-month band of kids.

 

The league with the most egregious ratio of Minors-To-Majors at 5.2 to 1 is also the league that dominated inter-league play this season, winning over 80% of inter-league games.  That league also grabbed four out of eight playoff spots, as well as landed both teams in the City Championship Game (totally different playoff format this season).  The other three leagues may have no option but to restrict Majors Division opportunities going forward if they want to be competitive.

 

To put this particular league in perspective, it has nine more teams in the 9 to 12 year old age group than in 2014 (last year before the waiver for 12 year olds to pitch in the AAA Minors Division was granted).  No change with 5 Majors Division teams, but has gone from 3 AAA Minors Division teams up to 8 AAA Minors Division teams for 11 and 12 year olds.  This past season, less than half the 11 and 12 year olds were playing in this particular league's Majors Division.

 

The DA says nothing, Williamsport says nothing.

 



#15 Jeremy

Jeremy

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~

  • Administrators
  • 1,307 posts
  • LocationNorthern California

Posted 06 July 2017 - 07:14 PM

My leagues in the same boat somewhat...Four county leagues, one league keeps 11's down and only takes the "best" 11's up, four per team....This league always has the best major team in the county because of it....Some think we should try to build like them, I say they should build more like us and the other county leagues.....You think winning wouldn't be fun when your league gives you an advantage before the first pitch of the year....We don't worry about the ratio, we were 1:1 four teams each this year but minors had 14 players per team and majors 12....We wanted another minor team but were already one manage short at draft.

Now back to the topic...We need to agree on the intent of combining teams before we can make rules.

#16 Lou Barbieri

Lou Barbieri

    Advanced Member

  • Moderators
  • 2,863 posts
  • LocationThe Villages, Florida

Posted 07 July 2017 - 01:11 PM

To me, combinations should only be approved where one or more of the leagues only has a few teams (1,2,3).

In my opinion, large leagues (more than 4 or 5 teams) should not be allowed to combine.

If you limit the total number of league/teams allowed to combine to 6 or 7 that limits the combinations to the smaller leagues.

#17 Jeremy

Jeremy

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~

  • Administrators
  • 1,307 posts
  • LocationNorthern California

Posted 07 July 2017 - 11:37 PM

>>>To me, combinations should only be approved where one or more of the leagues only has a few teams (1,2,3).

I agree for the most part.....Three is kind of pushing it and should be discouraged....Major softball in my league is always three teams with one or two ten year olds per team and we have no problem building an AllStar team with a pool that size....We even won two games this year

>>>In my opinion, large leagues (more than 4 or 5 teams) should not be allowed to combine.

I believe that they should be able to help neighboring leagues with only one team...I think leagues with one (maybe two) team should have a different set of rules than two leagues with 3 teams each trying to combine.

>>>If you limit the total number of league/teams allowed to combine to 6 or 7 that limits the combinations to the smaller leagues.

As it should be, I believe your numbers in your OP are a bit on the high side

I don't believe in "District teams" where they hold tryouts like they're doing in my District. If you have 10 leagues all with one Junior team each, I believe that only three leagues should be able to combine no matter what and you should only be able to use the closest league looking to also combine....One year you shouldn't be able to combine with League A because they have pitching and next year combine with league B because they have bats.....It should solely be based on geographical location and need.

#18 Mr. Dill

Mr. Dill

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 76 posts

Posted 08 July 2017 - 01:54 PM

So I just found out we play a combined team in Sectionals, for 11/12 boys. One league has 7 minors 4 majors, 2 Jr and 1 Sr and they combined with a league with 4 minor, 3 major, 1 Jr and 1 Sr.

I assume that they have a combined team form signed by LLHQ?

It's the first game of Sectionals and I will be checking all their paperwork.

Sounds like a good reason to have a combined team with 4 majors and 3 majors but making them pretty strong.

Only 2 of my leagues have 6 major teams. The others have 4, and the rest have 3. Those should combine, what do you think?

#19 Lou Barbieri

Lou Barbieri

    Advanced Member

  • Moderators
  • 2,863 posts
  • LocationThe Villages, Florida

Posted 08 July 2017 - 03:13 PM

Again, in my opinion, leagues shouldn't combine just to do better in the Tournament (although a lot do).

Again, in my opinion, if you can field a Tournament team with players from your own league that's what you should do.
Give as many of your own players as possible the opportunity to play All Stars.

#20 Jeremy

Jeremy

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~

  • Administrators
  • 1,307 posts
  • LocationNorthern California

Posted 08 July 2017 - 11:01 PM

Combining is new to me.

I would like to know about leagues that have 3+ major teams combining with other leagues of the same size for multiple years...It seems destined to fail.....Feeling will get hurt, sooner or latter a board member will have a kid that is the 8th best in his league and won't make the cut.....A whole other world of drama I'm glad my league doesn't take part in.



Reply to this topic



  


0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users