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Intermediate division, continuous batting order


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#21 Plesh

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Posted 18 April 2017 - 01:01 AM

I still don't like it.
Pretty tough to give a kid playing rec baseball 1 or 2 at bats and only a couple of innings in the field, regardless whether it's the first game or the championship game.
Especially since the kid(s) you are going to play minimally are probably just playing because their friends are playing and they want to have fun.
They're usually not playing LL for the competitiveness.
Most don't play past 12 years old.

I understand the development vs competitiveness attitude, believe me, no one hates to lose as much as I do.
But those lasting memories are made when your last hitter in the lineup, the kid who didn't even make contact all year, hits a single off the best pitcher in the league in a playoff game.
Or your worst fielder makes that miraculous catch with his eyes closed in right field in the championship game.
To limit those opportunities for "competitiveness" seems petty to me.
My friends and I still talk about those games and crazy moments almost 15 years later.
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#22 rsnyder6

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Posted 18 April 2017 - 02:48 AM

One fall I had two kids who didn't get a hit all season, both plunk a hit over the first basemen's head in the championship game.

Both parents made special point to thank the coaches, and we all were thrilled. 
 



#23 amutz

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Posted 18 April 2017 - 03:29 PM

One of my favorite memories of LL was a minors championship game where the other manager and I agreed prior to the game to pitch our 'wishes he can pitch' kid for an inning of the big game.  The game itself was a big deal but also symbolic because we'd already agreed to call the season a 3-way tie.  Long story behind it.  Anyway each of these boys did a very credible job and the memories were priceless all around.      

 

Our league struggles with the rec vs competition balance too. From our perspective Majors is supposed to be competitive.   One option for local rules is increased MPR (we use 3 innings) to give more than the LL min MPR.    


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#24 coach andy

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Posted 18 April 2017 - 07:37 PM

we do the 9 defensive outs / 3 innings as well for MPR, but we do not insist they are consecutive.

 

speaking from parents side, that end of the order batter can create some special memories.  my stepson really struggled all year at 9 or 10 in minors, had some contact, but not a clean hit all year .  tie game, bottom of last inning in "championship" game, he is up, runner on 1st, 2 outs.  I am at outfield fence near concessions getting something for mom, and i am just praying he does not make 3rd out.  one an early pitch, runner moves to 2B, no attempt made to throw.  they are counting on getting the batter, my stepson.  he sends one up the middle for base hit, runner scores.  coach makes certain to get the ball, and a week or so later gives it to stepson with date, score, and game winning RBI on it. Ball still is in our house (stepson is getting ready for college in the fall), and that hit is still remembered.  


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#25 B_Hanlon

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Posted 20 April 2017 - 12:41 PM

What are the MPR guidelines when using a Continuous Batting Order?
The way I read it a player must hit his MPR (6 Consecutive DO's + 1AB) and then the open defensive substitutions can start?

#26 Lou Barbieri

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Posted 20 April 2017 - 12:59 PM

Regular Season MPR does not say the defensive outs have to be consecutive.

4.04 for CBO says: a player can be entered and/or re-entered defensively in the game ANYTIME provided he/she meets the requirements of mandatory play.

So, players can be moved in/out of the game inning by inning if the manager so chooses.

All you need to do is assure each player gets one at-bat and plays six defensive outs by the end of the game.

#27 coach andy

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Posted 20 April 2017 - 01:35 PM

lou, your comment on the local rule of no one sitting two consecutive innings was there, was trying to quote it, then it was not

I generally like that rule, not a local rule for us, but something I tried to do personally.
I also think a good rule of thumb is no one sits three until everyone has sat two, especially for minors and below.
Now, in our softball minors, generally not an issue, as we only have 10-11 per team (so sitting 0-1 each inning).

#28 Lou Barbieri

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Posted 20 April 2017 - 01:46 PM

coach andy:
Here is the entire CBO local substitution rule for minors in a league in our District.
1) No player may sit two innings in a row.
2) No player may sit two innings until all other players have sat one inning
3) No player may sit three innings until all other players have sat two innings

Exception: The pitcher can remain in the game until he/she reaches the maximum pitch limit. Once the pitcher is removed he/she must sit out the same number of innings the other players have sat (this may require the pitcher to sit out consecutive innings).

===========
We use these Rules in our District Mid-Season Tournaments to maximize playing time for all of the players.

Sitting Log (with rules):
http://www.eteamz.co.../sittinglog.doc

#29 dadoftwins

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Posted 20 April 2017 - 02:58 PM

coach andy:
Here is the entire CBO local substitution rule for minors in a league in our District.
1) No player may sit two innings in a row.
2) No player may sit two innings until all other players have sat one inning
3) No player may sit three innings until all other players have sat two innings

Exception: The pitcher can remain in the game until he/she reaches the maximum pitch limit. Once the pitcher is removed he/she must sit out the same number of innings the other players have sat (this may require the pitcher to sit out consecutive innings).

===========
We use these Rules in our District Mid-Season Tournaments to maximize playing time for all of the players.

I'm all for this kind of rule for minors.
What do you think about for majors?
Intermediate?

Also, this is the type of rule that is OK for a local rule, correct?
What about pitch count limits more restrictive than LL rules - are those OK too?
What type of local rule would not be OK?

#30 Plesh

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Posted 20 April 2017 - 03:04 PM

I like those rules, but more as a suggestion and not a hard rule. Especially since we all know of the kid who you sit in the first inning, but then says they really have to go to the bathroom in the second. Or a kid who gets plunked with a pitch in the third and asked to sit out another inning.
By your local rules a manager couldn't do that.
I just think there are too many variables to make hard MPR local rules.

#31 Lou Barbieri

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Posted 20 April 2017 - 03:28 PM

Plesh: with injuries all bets are off.
As far as the bathroom goes, what do you do now under 3.03 if you put in a sub and he can't come out until playing 6 consecutive defensive outs, what if he has to go to the bathroom?

If a manager has a problem he talks to the ump and they work it out.
The intent of the rule is to get kids playing time and not just sit kids on the bench inning after inning.
The rule also does away with 6-7 kids playing the whole game while the others split the playing time of the last 2-3 spots.
I've seen a manager with 11 players play 8 of them the entire game and the other 3 players get 2 innings each in right field.

We have been using this rule for our minor and major District Mid-Season Tournament for at least 10 years without any issues.

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dadoftwins: local rules cannot "conflict" with LL Rules so things like increased MPR, lower pitch limits and increased days rest are fine.

#32 Plesh

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Posted 20 April 2017 - 04:37 PM

In regular season with CBO the defensive outs don't need to be consecutive.

And what you've described is why we removed standings in Majors.
Too many managers were just playing to win every game and giving those last few kids only a handful of innings.

#33 coach andy

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 03:28 PM

Plesh: with injuries all bets are off.
As far as the bathroom goes, what do you do now under 3.03 if you put in a sub and he can't come out until playing 6 consecutive defensive outs, what if he has to go to the bathroom?

If a manager has a problem he talks to the ump and they work it out.
The intent of the rule is to get kids playing time and not just sit kids on the bench inning after inning.
The rule also does away with 6-7 kids playing the whole game while the others split the playing time of the last 2-3 spots.
I've seen a manager with 11 players play 8 of them the entire game and the other 3 players get 2 innings each in right field.

We have been using this rule for our minor and major District Mid-Season Tournament for at least 10 years without any issues.

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dadoftwins: local rules cannot "conflict" with LL Rules so things like increased MPR, lower pitch limits and increased days rest are fine.

As long as no one is seen to be abusing injuries or players using BR (I mean managers, not players), I do not think anyone has an issue with this.
I can see the BR issue happening, esp for kid on home team sitting first defensively and not getting to on deck in bottom, as the kid probably sat there guzzling a drink for something to do. :)



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