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Intermediate division, continuous batting order


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#1 dadoftwins

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Posted 15 April 2017 - 03:32 AM

In the intermediate division and when using CBO, once a pitcher is removed can he reenter the game as a pitcher one time?
I see rule 3.03, but I'm confused if it applies with CBO.
Thanks!

#2 Lou Barbieri

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Posted 15 April 2017 - 11:50 AM

Yes, if the pitcher remains in the game in another defensive position.
A pitcher removed from the mound and remaining in the game on defense can return to pitch once.

If the pitcher is removed from the mound and goes to the bench (another player goes in on defense) then he/she cannot return to pitch.

#3 Mike_Hirschman

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Posted 15 April 2017 - 03:22 PM

Lou is correct.
For the purpose of the rule, he has to stay in the defensive 9 to be eligible for pitcher re-entry anytime you are using CBO.
That's for intermediate and above.

#4 dadoftwins

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Posted 15 April 2017 - 03:35 PM

Thanks both for the quick reply and confirmation.
I wish the rule were written a little more clearly - it is a sub-point of a rule that talks about substitutions, and with CBO there really aren't substitutions.
I think it should be its own standalone point.

With CBO, teams just move players in and out on defense, and nobody really pays attention to who sits or not.
We just pay attention to pitcher/catcher limits.
Pitcher re-enter with CBO adds a level of tracking complexity.

#5 Lou Barbieri

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Posted 15 April 2017 - 05:21 PM

I've never been a fan of removing a pitcher and putting him back on the mound later in the game.
Not good for his arm, in my opinion.

It's not too hard to track.
If a player pitches and is removed defensively simply put an "X" next to his name indicating he can not go back in to pitch.

#6 dadoftwins

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Posted 15 April 2017 - 05:30 PM

How about this example, this is how things go much of the time. Pitcher pitches 1 2/3 innings. Gets replaced by center fielder, and he moves to center. Third inning he goes to third, fourth inning to right, fifth inning sits. Sixth inning back into right, and then with two out the manager decides to bring him back into pitch.
No way have I tracked where that kid played each inning, nor the 2/3 other kids that may have pitched. See what I mean about it being difficult?

#7 dadoftwins

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Posted 15 April 2017 - 05:32 PM

And I agree about not bringing back in the pitcher.
Part off the confusion is that our local rules do not allow it, but in inter-league games our rules do not apply to the other team.

#8 Lou Barbieri

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Posted 15 April 2017 - 05:41 PM

Again, as long as the pitcher remains in the game on defense it doesn't matter where he plays, you don't have to track where he plays you just have to make sure he is still playing on defense.

Once he comes out of the game, in your case when he sat in the 5th, you put an "X" next to his name (or some other way identify he cannot pitch again).

As an umpire I use an "X" for this situation.
I use a "Y" for pitchers who can't catch and a "Z" for catchers that can't pitch.
In divisions that use SPR I put an "S" next to the player who was run for to make sure an SPR is not used for him again.
Lots of stuff to track!

As an umpire I am supposed to make sure rules are followed.
Umpires "enforce" the rules.
If an umpire doesn't track anything how can he/she assure that rules are not being broken?

#9 dadoftwins

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Posted 15 April 2017 - 06:10 PM

With continuous batting order and free substitutions, the manager does not report anything to the umps, and the umps here don't track anything at all.

#10 Lou Barbieri

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Posted 15 April 2017 - 06:53 PM

If no one tracks anything how do you know if everyone met MPR?

How do you know if a player can't pitch because he's caught in 4 innings?

Your umps aren't doing their jobs !!!

#11 dadoftwins

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Posted 15 April 2017 - 08:43 PM

If no one tracks anything how do you know if everyone met MPR?
How do you know if a player can't pitch because he's caught in 4 innings?
Your umps aren't doing their jobs !!!

Ha!
They all say that isn't their responsibility.
We all police ourselves, scouts honor...
I'll be having a discussion with the ump organization soon.

#12 Lou Barbieri

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Posted 16 April 2017 - 12:37 PM

"Ump organization" - are you paying for these umps?
If you are, you are not getting what you are paying for !!!

Umps need to do a lot more than just call balls/strikes and safe/out. B)

#13 Robin Barradio

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Posted 16 April 2017 - 06:12 PM

Lou, it's not the umpires responsibility to track MPR. We track changes in order to avoid illegal substitutions, ineligible pitchers/catchers, etc. We don't track MPR, nor are we responsible to make sure little Billy gets his playing time. We're not required to, nor should we, notate on our scorecards who has met MPR.

 

If there is an issue with MPR, then the umpires scorecard can help rectify any discrepancy. However, if there is an issue, it's almost always the official book that is used to track MPR. In our area when using CBO, the umpires track pitcher and catcher changes, and all other changes are recorded in the home book and reported to the opposing team. Rarely do we have MPR issues, and if we do, the league sorts the situation out using the official scorekeepers book. YMMV.

 

It is never the umpires responsibility to make sure a player gets MPR. Yes he should do his job and track changes, but if a coach doesn't get a player in the game or meet MPR, not my issue. The league can and should sort those issues out themselves.



#14 Lou Barbieri

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Posted 16 April 2017 - 08:27 PM

MPR is the responsibility of the official scorer but I still track innings played.

In a normal 9 man order you need to track when a sub goes in because he/she cannot come out until meeting MPR and the person the sub went in for cannot go back in until the sub meets MPR.
So I don't track MPR for MPR Regulation violations but I do track MPR due to the Substitution Rule.

In CBO things are a little different, but I still track subs/innings played by each player.

#15 Mike_Hirschman

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Posted 17 April 2017 - 04:52 PM

So... here is where I keep saying we kill our coaches with CBO.

Again, no one knows how to sub when it becomes times for tournaments. And no one knows how to report subs, either.

As Lou said, you still have to track who is playing where. The MPR protest isn't the responsibility of the umpire.
Where this gets ugly is I have seen one or two coaches that aren't even keeping scorebooks the last few years. (Yeah, let's go back to that 12-game schedule / 60% participation conversation now...)

And if some mom is keeping the book in the stands, guarantee she doesn't know who was where during a CBO game!

#16 amutz

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Posted 17 April 2017 - 05:21 PM

Suggestion we adopted to address this:
Play CBO for first 2/3 of season to distribute as many at bats as possible, then go to regular substitution rules for last 1/3 of season plus our local tournament.
That gives managers and players some experience with subs prior to District tournament.

#17 Lou Barbieri

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Posted 17 April 2017 - 05:33 PM

amutz- I "assume" you are talking about CBO in majors and above.
You would need a Waiver to do that in Minors.

That said, does it really help?
The Tournament Substitution Rule is different than the Regular Season Rule anyway!

#18 Plesh

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Posted 17 April 2017 - 06:03 PM

Only 2 or 3 people need to know the substitution rules for tournament play, why make things more confusing/limit playing time for all the kids by playing regular rules during the regular season?

Just keep it at CBO and have those couple of managers learn the rules.

#19 amutz

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Posted 17 April 2017 - 07:46 PM

Lou - that's correct we are only doing mid-season CBO change in Majors. Minors run CBO full-season including the local tournament.

Plesh - it's a balance of 'competitive' vs 'developmental' baseball. Regular substitution rules make it harder for an ace pitcher to cruise through batters 7-12 and kill two innings.
CBO is great in the earlier season to give all players at bats, and the kids who are more successful are rewarded in the latter part of the season.

I see a 'downside' to CBO in that kids can't earn more play time by hard work or lose at-bats by lack of it.
We'd like to teach players resilience and work ethic because when they graduate to the next local level (Babe Ruth where we live) there is no CBO and no MPR.

#20 coach andy

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Posted 17 April 2017 - 07:50 PM

Even with CBO, players who do better are going to be rewarded by being in top of lineup, this will result in more (albeit not more than with regular substitution) ABs over the course of several games.



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